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Episode 151: Betting for free
29th August, 2025 • Iszi Lawrence, Dani Siller and Bill Sunderland face questions about amenable albums, crafty containers and prudent practices.
Transcription by Caption+
Tom:
Why did the British electropop duo the Pet Shop Boys call their first album Please? The answer to that at the end of the show. My name's Tom Scott, and this is Lateral. Time is a flat circle. Or so I'm told by people who understand time zones, which is nobody. So welcome to Lateral, the podcast for those who think the International Date Line is a premium rate phone number.
Bill:
(chuckles)
Tom:
That's a joke that's just not gonna land for anyone under 30, and I'm fine with that.
Bill:
I liked it.
Tom:
If you would like to schedule a call, then you can prepare for everyone to become a time zone guru, armed with vague hand gestures and confident misinformation. But at least you know what time zone you're in right now. Unless you're currently orbiting around the Earth, in which case, please call us. We'd love to have you on the show. Joining us to navigate this temporal minefield, first of all, from Escape This Podcast and many other things besides, welcome back to the show, Bill Sunderland.
Bill:
Thank you for having me back. I'm excited to do another great episode of Lateral.
Tom:
And you are in a much later time zone than me. How are you doing, late night recording?
Bill:
Time zone wise, the— I have the extra thing of being southern hemisphere. So all the people I work with online, there's like, oh, we're doing a daylight savings change. But they go one way, and I go the other way, and we end up with a two-hour change, and it destroys every— and then everyone's going at different times. Don't get me started. It's a bad time of the year.
Tom:
Yep, and North America and Europe are going at different times of the year as well. There's three weeks apart this time. It's infuriating. But that has given away how far in advance we've recorded this episode.
Bill:
Hey, that's good. Makes you seem cool.
Tom:
Well, very best of luck on the show today. Also joining from Escape This Podcast and many other things, Dani Siller, welcome back.
Dani:
UTC+10 represent.
Tom:
(laughs) Well, you should probably at some point plug all the stuff you're working on. I just kinda skipped past that with Bill.
Dani:
No, I think it's fine. We've been on here a few times. People know where to find us with our podcasts and things like that. I think it's time for petty personal gripes this time.
SFX:
(Tom and Bill laugh)
Dani:
You know what's going on in my life right now? I've got a pimple on my chin. They assured me this would stop after I was a teenager, but it is—
Tom:
It's infuriating, isn't it?
Bill:
(giggles)
Tom:
Well, also joining us with whatever petty personal grips you happen to have at the moment...
Iszi:
So many, so many.
Tom:
Children's author, and many other things besides, Iszi Lawrence, welcome back to the show.
Iszi:
Thanks very much for having me, Tom.
Tom:
What else are you working on? 'Cause you've got the Terrible Lizards podcast.
Iszi:
Yes, I've got the Terrible Lizards podcast. You can hear me on BBC's The Forum. I'm quite a lot on that. I've got this new book called The Cursed Tomb for your pedantic children who like their historical fiction as accurate as possible. So do check out Iszi.com. And you'll find all about me.
Tom:
And you appear to have a robot behind you.
Iszi:
It's not a robot!
Tom:
Okay, what is it? What is it?
Iszi:
That is a time machine. And specifically it is a time machine that's invented by one of my characters called Alex, who's this brilliant inventor; she lives up in Manchester. And she named it "the boring machine". 'Ccause you know, when you're bored, time slows down.
Tom:
Ahh.
Dani:
Ahh.
Iszi:
Get even more bored, it can stop. And using a boring machine, you can get it to tick backwards, which is why it's got two drawers. So the top drawer, you put in something boring, like a broken tablet or like conversations of grown-ups talking about mortgages, stuff like that.
Tom:
(laughs)
Iszi:
And then that powers it. And then in the bottom drawer – because obviously we know that the Earth is moving through the universe, and it's spinning and everything else – you have to have an object to follow. So you need the timeline to follow. And that's where you put something like, you know, a dinosaur tooth in or you put some old coins, or you know, whatever you fancy, and then you can, you know, grab onto the handles, you know, get flipped back in time. But if you get too excited when you're back there, can't hold you there, and you go straight back to the future again. So it's gotta be quite boring.
Tom:
I love that's been turned into a physical prop that lives in your office.
Iszi:
Indeed this was done by a man called Dom, who basically cheated on World Book Day. For those of you without kids who do not know what World Book Day is, he basically— all the kids go in as their favourite characters. And one of the kids came in as Alex. So she— I think she had the hair and everything else, But there she is, right? (holds up book cover) And came in as Alex. And so her dad made her this prop. And so she won World Book Day. And her name's Freya. Well done, Freya. Shout out to Freyer. And yeah, no. And then they had this in their house, and were just like, "Do you want it?" And I was like, "Yeah." So...
Dani:
Unbelievable.
Tom:
It is a complete coincidence that the script that the producer's written today happens to be about time zones. Complete coincidence. Which means that... we should try to synchronise our body clocks and ignore the existential dread of temporal relativity. What time is it? It's puzzle time. Here's question one.
Iszi:
Do-do-do-doo.
Tom:
Thank you to Robert Stevens for this question. For over 100 years, copies of the Farmers' Almanac have had a hole drilled in their upper left corner. Why? I'll give you that one more time.
Iszi:
Oh, I know the answer to this!
SFX:
(Tom and Bill laugh)
Tom:
For over 100 years, copies of the Farmers' Almanac have had a hole drilled in their upper left corner. Why? Good news, Iszi. You get to sit out the first question and be a little smug while Bill and Dani work their way towards this one.
Iszi:
I really hope I'm not wrong. 'Cause it's such a good answer.
Tom:
(laughs) And it was so excited as well. It's very rare that we have someone who says that so enthusiastically and then turns out to be wrong. But it happens. I've done it before, so...
Iszi:
I mean, if I'm wrong, I don't care. 'Cause the answer I have is so wonderful.
Dani:
It's better than the truth.
Iszi:
Yeah.
Dani:
Alright. Manual labour, notoriously my strong point.
Bill:
(snickers)
Dani:
All I'm picturing is them hanging it off... something unusual. Do you hang it off a rake? Is there a part of a tractor that's got a special hook? What would you do? I don't understand anything about farming.
Bill:
I think... I think you do hang it. I feel like I have in my brain a pop culture reference, the source of which... I have, maybe even just a cultural reference. The source of which I have no idea of what it is. And I, for some reason, my brain is saying, Farmers' Almanac. You read that in the bathroom. And it hangs on a rope by the toilet so that you can read the Farmers' Almanac, which I have no understanding—
Dani:
The country equivalent of a fish poster.
SFX:
(Tom and Bill laugh)
Bill:
Little bit.
Tom:
Okay, you— I get the fish poster reference
Iszi:
So close.
Tom:
thanks to Taskmaster New Zealand. But Dani, you should explain the fish poster.
Dani:
That couldn't have made more sense to us when we saw that on Taskmaster. This is definitely a thing. I've seen it in a lot of houses, a lot of holiday houses, where you need something to read in the bathroom. But instead of having books, magazines, or whatever in a little stack, there's something on the back of the door. And, for whatever reason, there are a lot of rules about fishing and a lot of interesting fish around our southern hemisphere areas. So there are pictures of all the fish you might find in the locale.
Bill:
Yeah, fish posters are universal in Australia. In the universe of Australia, they're everywhere. Just a poster of local fish, various sizes, what size they need to be.
SFX:
(Tom and Iszi laugh)
Iszi:
You guys are great.
Bill:
Do you have to throw them back?
Iszi:
Surely poisonous spiders, snakes, things that people actually need to know?
Bill:
No, no, they're fine.
Iszi:
Maybe? No, okay.
Bill:
They're just chill little guys. We don't need to worry about them.
Dani:
See, those are the ones we know not to touch, but a lot of people try to touch fish.
Iszi:
Okay.
Tom:
(laughs)
Bill:
You've gotta know what fish you're touching.
Iszi:
They're hard to touch, to be fair.
Bill:
That's true.
Tom:
Bill, you have remembered that pop culture reference correctly. That is the first half of the question.
Dani:
Amazing.
Tom:
But you could just put the Farmers' Almanac in the toilet.
Dani:
Yeah.
Iszi:
Well, not in the toilet.
Tom:
In the toilet room. Lemme rephrase that.
Bill:
In the bathroom.
Tom:
Yes.
Bill:
In the WC.
Tom:
There is a particular word that we're looking for. If it was a few decades ago.
Bill:
Ah.
Dani:
The commode.
SFX:
(Bill and Iszi crack up)
Tom:
We're talking... talking 19— What— They started drilling this in 1919. So...
Iszi:
That late?
Tom:
Yes.
Bill:
To stop.
Tom:
They started officially drilling it in 1919. Before then, lots of people were putting a nail in the corner and putting a hole through it and hanging it up. But first of all, where? And second, why hang it up?
Bill:
(snickers) Is it... Are they ripping pages out and using it as...
Dani:
Well, you say pages.
Bill:
It's toilet paper.
Tom:
It's toilet paper.
Iszi:
(finger-guns)
Dani:
(cackles)
Bill:
Why don't people respect their almanacs?
Tom:
(halts laugh) Ah, no... Keep going. Why don't people respect their almanacs?
Bill:
You get a new one every year.
Tom:
You get a new one every year.
Bill:
It's a new year.
Dani:
Oh, I see.
Bill:
Farming has changed fundamentally. All the harvest dates are different. And so who needs the old one?
Dani:
But not different enough for people to...
Bill:
So you...
Dani:
Yeah.
Bill:
Well, yeah, no, completely. You throw out the whole old book. You don't need any of its pages anymore.
Dani:
I was visualising it the other way 'round. It stays the same every year, more or less. So like a phone book, you don't really need the updated version, so you get the updated version in your bathroom.
Bill:
And use the old version!
Iszi:
No, no.
Dani:
The old ones probably makes more sense.
Tom:
What's the key word I was looking for, instead of bathroom though?
Bill:
Outhouse.
Iszi:
Dunny?
Tom:
Outhouse.
Iszi:
Outhouse.
Tom:
Or dunny, either would work, but yes.
Bill:
Or dunny. I'm happy with dunny.
Tom:
Yes, this was the Farmers' Almanac, published since 1818, and it has a limited shelf life. The information in it goes out of date, and goes steadily out of date over the year. So it was often hung in outhouses as free toilet paper, and the hole is still there today in the new version, mostly as a historic feature.
Iszi:
And it's been used like that, I think since the mid 19th century, since they first started printing it. Because basically before then, toilet paper wasn't really a thing anyway. I'm sorry, I'm big into where people in the past used the bathroom, because... as a historical fiction author, and for kids. You need to know exactly.
Tom:
You need to know.
Iszi:
'Cause the kids really need to know! So, yeah, so the Farmers' Almanac is, yeah, it's a classic. It's such a good fact. And I'm really upset that I revealed everything. 'cause I could have just snuck in and just been cool.
Tom:
(laughs heartily)
Iszi:
But no. No, I was just like, yes! (giggles)
Tom:
Bill, it is over to you for the first guest question of the show.
Bill:
Alright. This question was sent in by Bob Weisz. Thank you so much, Bob. The Ear Inn, one of New York City's oldest taverns, was established in 1817. For most of that time, it didn't have a name. Then in the 1970s, the current owners hit upon an idea. Why did they choose the new name? I'll give you that again. The Ear Inn, one of New York City's oldest taverns, was established in 1817. For most of that time, it didn't have a name. Then in the 1970s, the current owners hit upon an idea. Why did they choose the new name?
Iszi:
Can I ask how you're spelling 'Ear'?
Bill:
You can, but will I answer? Yes, I will. E-A-R, like the human ear. The word I'm saying is 'Ear'. I've got one under this headphone.
Dani:
How did they get away with not having a name for that long?
Tom:
Oh, 'cause that's something in a lot of... Genres is the wrong word. Categories.
Iszi:
Types?
Tom:
Types of... Well, the thing is, I'm going so broad on here. I've just gotta go with categories of noun and things like that. There are lots of examples of where things, at some point, need to be given a name. Just because computers now exist, and records now exist, and you have to identify it somehow. Like the tavern in the local little village doesn't need a name. It's just—
Dani:
But before that, it was just known enough. It's just the tavern. Oh, okay.
Tom:
If someone comes in, then you need to point someone there. "Yeah, it's the tavern over there." Roads did not always have names and sometimes still don't. There's lots of places where if it's just the thing that everyone knows, it doesn't need a name until it has to go into some national database or regional database of, oh, we have to identify this thing at this address. What's it called? It doesn't have a name.
Dani:
I wish this was the episode where I had my Greenland question. 'Cause I had a fact that I found about that.
Tom:
Oh, it's also, while I'm rambling, 'cause I'm rambling, but I'm gonna keep going. This is why you end up with things like River Avon.
Iszi:
Mm. River River.
Tom:
Avon means river.
Dani:
Is that River River?
Tom:
It's River River. There's loads them because someone comes up and goes, "What's that called?" "Avon." "Oh, it's the River Avon." (groans) It's just the river. That's it. Doesn't need a name.
Dani:
Now you said something that I did wonder about, that you said, "Oh, just that tavern over here." Is it—
Iszi:
Exactly.
Dani:
Was that what someone did? Did they say, "Oh, in 'ere?" Or Inn Ear.
Iszi:
Well, that's what I say. If it was cockneys, then this would make sense. But this is New York, and they don't go, "Over 'ere." They don't do that. You know.
Tom:
And also they hit an R on that. There would be— It would be "earrr". Which I can't say in my accent. It doesn't sound right, but...
Iszi:
Nobody could say New York accents. They don't exist. It's weird.
SFX:
(guests crack up)
Iszi:
It's like Boston accents. They're just so hard.
Tom:
But there would be a rhotic R on the end of it. It'll be "earrr".
Bill:
But they probably put that on ear as well, right?
Iszi:
Ear Inn. Is it because they sold earrings?
Dani:
(snickers) That's a weird tavern.
Bill:
No, no. It is not because they sold earrings.
Iszi:
Alas.
Bill:
In fact... Honestly, it has nothing to do with a human ear.
Iszi:
Okay.
Bill:
Not really. Not in any practical, real way.
Iszi:
Okay. So... Is it maybe... Is it one of the... some of the letters have dropped off? So was it called 'Pearl', and the L and the P dropped off, and so it became 'Ear'? Is it like one of those things? Like the C when it falls off Canal Street?
Dani:
(laughs daintily)
Bill:
What you're hitting on now is actually pretty close, but it didn't have a name. It's not that this is the new name. This is the first name in the 1970s. For most of its history, it didn't have a name.
Iszi:
So are those the cheapest lettering that they could get?
Bill:
It's not Scrabble rules.
SFX:
(others snickering)
Tom:
That's a shame, 'cause I was working on anagrams of 'Ear Inn' there, and all I got was 'Near In', which is not...
Iszi:
No.
Tom:
'NE Rain', it's not there.
Bill:
But you're very— It is a very close idea.
Tom:
Oh, okay.
Iszi:
So, it's the shortest... Maybe vowels are cheaper than consonants, and it's the shortest word that they could think of that has vowels in, as opposed to... Does that make any sense? I mean... (laughs)
Bill:
No, you have to buy a vowel. They're— They cost you extra.
Dani:
(laughs)
Iszi:
That is true. So why 'Ear'? But it's nothing to do with the human ear.
Dani:
You said that it looked nothing— it was nothing to do with the human ear. I was thinking, I don't know, maybe they had some sort of artwork on the outside, and that was what it ended up looking like.
Iszi:
Is it like... next to an optician's? And you've got another.
SFX:
(others laughing)
Bill:
Again, you were so close with the idea of the name falling off or parts of the letters missing. It just, it didn't have a name, but you're very close.
Dani:
So what did it have?
Bill:
What did it have?
Iszi:
What did it have instead of a name? Was there a... Maybe this is a part of a road sign or something. And they just added the word 'Inn'? So it's like Near Boulevard or something. I don't know. What?
Tom:
It's gonna be a street or an avenue in... Oh no, that's Manhattan. It might not be.
Iszi:
Yeah.
Bill:
It is true. It didn't have a name, but no one was confused as to what it was. It did have signage.
Iszi:
It had a sign outside that hung there like an ear.
Bill:
No, no.
Iszi:
No, okay. 'Cause old pub signs, because the pub sign comes from, just 'cause let's not erase women's history here on this podcast.
Tom:
(chuckles)
Iszi:
Because women used to brew beer.
Bill:
Yeah, Tom!
Iszi:
Yeah, yeah!
Tom:
(stammers)
Iszi:
Whateves.
Tom:
No, no, hold on.
Bill:
We're not gonna let you get away with this again, Tom!
SFX:
(guests laughing)
Iszi:
Exactly. When we're talking about signs of taverns, this is an important fact, right? In the olden days, medieval times, it's why I get really upset when you have pubs. I don't mind taverns. That's fine. But your pubs in your medieval times didn't exist. What you had was women, housewives, people like that, brewing beer, brewing too much beer. And when they had a lot of beer, they put a sign outside to say, "Hey guys, come get beer, and then I'll come get beer off you guys." It's sort of like, you know, swapsies of beer, and they'd each had their own painted signs. That's why you get a little white lion or you get a little red hen or something. It's because women were doing that. You know, in the past, 'cause women brewed the beer! Anyway. That's got— So I'm thinking that there was a thing hanging outside the inn already, which looks either like an ear or was something like an ear.
Tom:
I'm convinced this is a word one. Or a letter one.
Bill:
It is words. I will say I would never call this place a tavern in my daily life. But I have done so for a reason. 'Cause I'm asking a question on Lateral.
Tom:
Which means it might be 'bar' or 'pub' or something like that.
Iszi:
Or 'inn'. It's not gonna be pub, is it? Not in America.
Tom:
Is it reusing letters? It's some kind of word thing that we can't—
Bill:
Yes, it is... You are very close with that... missing letters. It's an adaptation of the existing...
Dani:
Is it the fact— If you took the word 'BAR' and adjusted the B a little bit, that does look like it would turn into the word 'EAR'.
Tom:
Oh!
Bill:
They did remove the right half of the B in 'BAR' to make it read 'EAR'.
Tom:
(laughs)
Bill:
But there is one tiny little extra element to this.
Dani:
There must be.
Bill:
Why? Why would you just slightly change the... signage of your existing place? Why don't just give it a cool name that you wanted to give it, as a cool name?
Dani:
That is a good question.
Iszi:
Or was it in the background shot of a famous TV show or something? And everybody was just like, "Oh, I know that place." And they didn't— Like Taxi or something. and it was in the background of a, you know, thing like that?
Tom:
Or they were just cheap and did not want to buy a new sign.
Iszi:
I mean, that makes sense. I mean, that makes perfect sense to me, but...
Bill:
It wasn't so much cheap. Look, if it was easy for them to get a new sign, they would have.
Iszi:
Because at the time, there was New York strikes on sign makers, and they refused to make any more signs. 'Cause there was a massive... Yeah, no, okay.
Dani:
Yeah, what was going on in the '70s?
Tom:
Bar and Inn are engraved into the stone somehow, because it's one of the really old buildings in New York, and they just had to cover up the...
Bill:
It is one of the really old buildings.
Iszi:
So there's a historic reason that they—
Tom:
Wait, they legally can't change the building. It's a listed building.
Dani:
Oh, that makes sense.
Tom:
They can't hang a sign on it. They're not allowed to change a sign on it.
Bill:
Yeah, now look. They may have been allowed if they'd tried hard enough, but it would've required a lot of red tape and bureaucracy to change the sign on a historic landmark. And so instead, they just sort of turned off some of the tubing on the old neon sign.
Tom:
Ohhh!
Bill:
And Bar, the unnamed bar, became the cool hip, new drinkin' location Ear.
Dani:
(laughs)
Iszi:
So, I have a question about neon tubing and science. 'Cause I don't think that that— How old are we talking? It's 1940s earliest, I'd imagine. Am I wrong—
Tom:
'70s when this happened, I think.
Iszi:
Exactly, so it's only 30 years. I mean, I suppose it's new. You know Americans think that's a long time.
Bill:
Who knows when they listed the façade.
Tom:
(laughs) And the Brits think 500 miles is a long way.
Iszi:
Oh, yes, it's true.
Bill:
But yes. To change the signage on their heritage listed façade, they partially painted out 'BAR' to turn it into 'EAR'.
Tom:
Thank you to Matthew Frye for this delicately worded question. On the 24th of September 2017, where did Simon ask David and Gerry to insert a couple of plastic water bottles in front of 2,000 people?
SFX:
(Bill and Dani laugh)
Tom:
I'll say that one more time. On the 24th of September 2017, where did Simon ask David and Gerry to insert a couple of plastic water bottles in front of 2,000 people?
Dani:
Sorry, why is everyone laughing? Can someone explain that to me?
SFX:
(Tom and Bill crack up)
Tom:
No.
Bill:
No.
Tom:
I realise we're meant to yes-and things here, but... No, no, no. Not gonna explain that one.
Iszi:
Yeah, so Simon, David, and Gerry.
Tom:
Yes.
Iszi:
Have got together.
Bill:
This has got the vibe of important that these names are Simon, David, and Gerry. Rather than just three names pulled out of a hat. I think these are names that we could recognise. We're like, oh, that's... three members of the Blue Man Group.
Iszi:
Well, Jerry is the only one that stands out, isn't it? 'Cause it is either Jerry Seinfeld or Tom and Jerry. And that's the only Jerrys.
Bill:
They are the only two Jerrys.
Iszi:
They're the only Jerrys. Oh, Ben and Jerry's.
Bill:
Geri Halliwell.
Iszi:
Ooh!
Bill:
I didn't see it written down.
Iszi:
Nice. Yeah. 'Cause I spelt it in my notes, yeah. So it could be Geri Halliwell. It could be Seinfeld. It could be Ben and Jerry's from the ice cream.
Tom:
It's time for Name That Gerry!
Iszi:
There aren't many! This is a good route to go down!
Bill:
It could be a can. They're putting plastic bottles in a jerrycan.
Iszi:
That's right. It could be... a random German from the ninth— from the First World War.
Tom:
You will not know this Gerry. You might know this Simon, but I think it's unlikely you'll recall him from memory. I wouldn't go too far down the names here.
Dani:
Challenge accepted.
Iszi:
Exactly.
Bill:
So three people.
SFX:
(guests crack up)
Bill:
Three people.
Iszi:
Males... males... we're going with.
Tom:
Mhm.
Bill:
Three guys. Couple of plastic bottles, and 2,000 people.
Iszi:
So 20,000 people could just be online. In 2017 there were, you know, YouTube had taken off that much.
Bill:
People were online.
Iszi:
It could be just... This could be just a really random...
Dani:
Was this like key bottle flipping times when that was the big trend?
Iszi:
Oh yeah.
Bill:
2017, people like to flip a bottle.
Iszi:
I mean, is it the fact that they're water bottles significant? Because I know that water bottles are used in charities 'cause they, instead of light bulbs, they're like a skylight for certain... like if you live in a favela or something, you've got a simple building.
Bill:
Oh yeah, I've seen those.
Iszi:
They basically cut a hole in the roof, and they put a water bottle in. And because of the refraction of the light and everything else, it actually lights the room up quite nicely.
Tom:
Water bottle and a little bit of bleach.
Iszi:
Ooh.
Dani:
I know that we have school students who do similar things, like to use them with seedlings, surrounding them with water bottles. I don't know if it's to help with structure or just for a bit of a protective barrier. But yeah, that's when we use them.
Tom:
The bottles are being used as a somewhat improvised piece of equipment.
Bill:
Is it an instrument? Are we playing on stage, and you stick the water bottles in, then you go... (imitates tuned percussion)
Tom:
Where did that come from, Bill?
Dani:
Let's see if we can keep this going.
Tom:
(laughs)
Bill:
(continues performing) I dunno, I just pictured water bottles full of different—
Dani:
It comes from Miss Congeniality.
Bill:
You kinda improvise with them. You just think, hey, you know, I could get a different sound outta these different water bottles.
Iszi:
But glass, not plastic, surely.
Dani:
You can do it with... I would definitely do that with blowing over the tops of them as practice for playing the flute before I played the flute.
Iszi:
But you don't insert those bottles anyway, do you, when you're practicing?
Dani:
That's true.
Bill:
You put 'em in a vibraphone so you can slap 'em with a... Or whatever they are.
Iszi:
Do you put them like in a... I want put them in a live—
Bill:
A kick drum?
Iszi:
Oh.
Tom:
What was that, Iszi?
Iszi:
I would— My mind's going, you put them in a live creature, but that's probably not right.
SFX:
(group laughing)
Iszi:
I'm thinking of that episode of Jerry Seinfeld, where they've managed to get a golf ball into a whale. But...
SFX:
(Tom and Dani laugh)
Iszi:
That's what's throwing me. It's the name Jerry is really throwing me now.
Tom:
I will say that Bill is, out of nowhere, very close.
Iszi:
But he's a musician. So it's not that, you know. This is where his brain goes. You know, what makes amazing sounds?
Bill:
That's half of— half the music I make, is water bottles on a stage. (laughs)
Tom:
But you came up with, I think, vibraphone and kick drum. And those are not where you might put plastic.
Bill:
I've just seen people do weird stuff with their— with big— with their bass drum. Or the kick drum on a drum set. They'll be like, oh, I put this big rolled up piece of cloth in it, and I've done this and...
Iszi:
I know that the first... Oh, what are those things in circuits, which— with a sign that's like an equal sign that goes like that. What's they called?
Tom:
Capacitors.
Iszi:
Capacitors!
Bill:
Capacitors.
Iszi:
So a capacitor, a normal capacitor. The first capacitor, right, was done mid-18th century by this sort of weird priest guy. And he basically used large bottles of water in order to slow down the electric current and try and store it. So all I'm saying is, could this have something to do, if you wrap an electric guitar cable around it, so you insert it into a coil, that actually might make the sound really funky. 'Cause you know how obsessed musicians are with their cables, and keeping them perfect, and they don't like you tying them in a knot and stuff, and they cry?
SFX:
(others chuckling)
Iszi:
Well, all I'm saying is... maybe I've used them to wrap, you know, around a cable.
Tom:
So, wrong instrument. But right kind of reason. It made it sound better. Or it made it sound more appropriate.
Dani:
Is it a weird trumpet mute or a trombone mute?
Tom:
Yes, Dani. Yes, it is.
Dani:
Oh, what?
Iszi:
Amazing.
Dani:
I love the sound of a muted trumpet.
Tom:
Yes, these were used as a trumpet mute. The Simon is Sir Simon Rattle, the famous conductor, who was joining the London Symphony Orchestra, and they were producing celebration concerts. Now, why use water bottles? That's the last bit of this question.
Bill:
Yeah, why not get a mute?
Iszi:
You use your hand in a lot of jazz stuff, don't you?
Tom:
Mhm.
Iszi:
You know, that's—
Bill:
You use your cool little hat.
Iszi:
Is there something to do with the fact that it's mostly water, and therefore, it absorbs sound in a particular way? Or it doesn't reverberate at the right tone?
Tom:
Yeah, actually, I'm gonna give you that, Iszi. That is close enough. They auditioned all sorts of mutes for the performance of Stravinsky's Rite of Spring, which has lots of raucous passages, lots of quiet sections. And for the quiet sections, got a direct quote from Gerry here: "They're just very quiet mutes sent to us from a trumpet player in Japan. David and I played a different selection of mutes to Sir Simon for that passage. Those were the ones he preferred."
Bill:
I love it.
Dani:
Sweet.
Iszi:
His last name's Rattle?
Tom:
Rattle. Sir Simon Rattle.
Iszi:
That's almost nominative determinism. That's almost it. Almost.
Tom:
Almost. Almost.
Iszi:
It's kind of like...
Bill:
He could have been a conductor, or he could have been a baby.
Iszi:
Exactly.
Dani:
Tom, I appreciate you telling us not to spend too long focusing on the names.
Tom:
I didn't think you'd get Simon Rattle, no.
Bill:
Everyone at home, don't tell Tom. But I was not gonna get Simon Rattle. I was definitely gonna get Simon Rattle. Come on.
Iszi:
Yeah.
Tom:
Over to Iszi for the next question from the guests. Whenever you're ready.
Iszi:
Here we go. A household object can be made to last longer by burning it more. What is it, and why? And again. A household object can be made to last longer by burning it more. What is it, and why?
Dani:
We have a lot of fire ban around here.
Bill:
We burn nothing.
Dani:
So I get the feeling this might not be the question that gives us an edge.
Bill:
Burn it more so it lasts longer. I'm gonna say candles. They're out. That's not the answer.
Tom:
(laughs)
Dani:
I don't know. Do fireplaces work better if you shoot smoke through them every so often? I don't know what a fireplace is like when it stops working. But—
Bill:
Yeah.
Tom:
Sometimes there's a load of things in these questions to go off and explore. And in this case, it's just a household object?
Dani:
It's not even a human name that we can dissect.
Bill:
When you get— When you've read all of the Word documents that are on your rewriteable CD, you could just throw it out, or you could burn it more.
Tom:
(laughs)
Bill:
Stick some new documents on there. It lasts even longer!
Dani:
Does it though?
Iszi:
I love that as an answer, Bill. Well done. But there is something that Bill has said, which you might want to disagree with.
Tom:
Candles?
Bill:
Oh, candles?
Dani:
Is this something... I feel like we're getting into weird riddle territory that, you know, the more you wet something, the more it dries. One of those sorts of riddles. Is there some way that candles work with that?
Tom:
Exactly how was the question phrased? Can you give it us one more time?
Iszi:
A household object can be made to last longer by burning it more. What is it, and why?
Bill:
Oh, I think it is candles!
Dani:
Bill, you are a candle aficionado.
Tom:
Bill's a candle aficionado?
Bill:
No, I just...
Iszi:
Of course he is.
Bill:
have a couple of candles. But, I did—
Tom:
(laughs) Just a couple. Just a few.
Dani:
Couple dozen.
Bill:
I'm a— I think this is a candle thing actually. So I bel— I think this has to do with... candle tunneling. A wick is much like a boring machine itself, because it tunnels straight through the centre of the candle.
Dani:
Sure.
Bill:
I think this is like when you first get a— This is a candle tip for all you candleheads at home. I'm pretty sure when you first get a candle—
Tom:
Pretty sure Candlehead is a villain from a horror movie.
SFX:
(guests giggling)
Bill:
Probably a Batman villain.
Iszi:
It used to be—
Bill:
You'll never catch me! I'm Candlehead!
Iszi:
Random ancient Egypt fact, right? In the olden days, if you're a woman at a party, you put a thing of scented candle on your head, pretty much, set fire to it, and the wax would go down your face all evening and let off amazing smells. Which I think we should do.
Dani:
I legitimately thought you were going to say, you know, some of the ancient Egyptian guards had like eagle heads? Well, you'll never guess Candlehead.
Tom:
(laughs)
Iszi:
This is the candle— candle literally, you know, all over you.
Dani:
Wild.
Bill:
I love it.
Iszi:
I know. It's so cool. Anyway, sorry. There's nothing to do with that.
Dani:
Back to the candleheads.
Bill:
I'm pretty sure if you light a candle – the first time, especially – if you light it for a little bit, it'll make a little pool just around the wick, and then every subsequent time you light it, it'll just melt into that pool, and it will never access the outer wax. But if on the first time you let it evenly melt across the whole candle, and you really get a proper melt going on... it'll use all the wax the whole time. It's like, this is picturing when it's in a candle, in a jar kind of thing, and it'll use the whole thing. It will go down rather than tunneling right right through the middle.
Iszi:
Bang on, Bill.
Dani:
How do you
Tom:
Wow!
Dani:
force that to happen?
Bill:
I don't know. I'm not enough of a candlehead.
Iszi:
Bang on.
Tom:
You say that, Bill. Now and forever, you are obviously the candle aficionado and expert of the podcast.
Bill:
(laughs)
Iszi:
I mean, I would just say, there was a million middle-aged women just yelling into their headphones right now, just going, "I knew that! That's obvious! Come on, everybody knows this! Don't ever blow out a candle until it's got that bit of melty." We know this. It also works with, if you've got a fat candle that's standalone, it'll also do that as well.
Bill:
Yeah, yeah.
Iszi:
So it's very important you do the things.
Bill:
Little tapered dinner candle.
Iszi:
But if a candle is not burned for sufficiently long before it is extinguished, only the area immediately around the flame will melt. This causes a memory ring effect, where the outer part of the wax will never melt. Instead, the flame will tunnel down vertically, leaving much of the wax unused. To avoid this from happening, you should keep burning the candle until the entire top layer of wax is liquid right to the edge. This is especially important on the first burn. So 10 outta 10, Bill. You got it.
Dani:
Okay, wow.
Tom:
Nailed it.
Iszi:
Apart from, I should minus a little bit, because you went, "It's not candles" right at the start.
Bill:
The first thing I said was—
Iszi:
Throwing everyone off.
Bill:
Don't use— Don't do candles.
Tom:
Thank you to Daniel for sending this question in. The language of the Vikings, Old Norse, was originally written in runic script. Each rune was made up of vertical and diagonal lines. Why were horizontal lines avoided? And one more time. The language of the Vikings, Old Norse, was originally written in runic script. Each rune was made up of vertical and diagonal lines. Why were horizontal lines avoided? And I am worried—
Dani:
They were really hard.
Tom:
I'm worried that Iszi's gonna get this immediately. 'Cause it's a history question.
Iszi:
It is a history one, but I don't know my Norse runes.
Tom:
(phew) Okay.
Iszi:
At all. So this is, I'm going to, I'm gonna say for now, I have no idea, but I'm gonna say for now, it's to do with how it's read. But I don't know how it's read. So...
Bill:
My kind of first pitch is that it's due to the... Not the medium, what— the thing that it is written on.
Iszi:
Stone and wood.
Bill:
I wonder if... if you're writing on stone, but it's got stratigraphy kind of things going up and down. If you're writing on wood, and it's got tree— Maybe whatever you write on naturally has sort of randomly horizontal lines. So you just say, hey, if you see horizontal, don't even look at it. Don't look at it.
Dani:
So you mean like for instance, wood makes more sense to me, that you have to go against the grain. 'Cause if you go with the grain, it'll just split or something like that. Is that what you mean?
Bill:
Or, like it just, you would look— you would see horizontally.
Dani:
Oh, you just couldn't see it very well.
Bill:
It'd be hard. Yeah.
Iszi:
But that would mean logically you weren't ever putting like a wood, you know, plank vertically. If that was the case, you'd only be using wood planks horizontally, which doesn't really make much sense.
Bill:
No, but there's something—
Dani:
Maybe it does.
Tom:
Absolutely right.
Iszi:
Oh wow!
Tom:
Absolutely right. It's so the wood didn't split.
Dani:
Oh, right.
Bill:
Especially with the grain of the wood.
Tom:
Yes. So, runes will often be carved along the length of a stick or staff or handle. So, vertical's fine. Diagonal's fine. You put a horizontal line in there... and that will just split the whole stuff.
Iszi:
Bone. They should've used bone.
Bill:
They shoulda used—
Dani:
Idiots!
Bill:
They're Vikings. There's bones everywhere!
Iszi:
Exactly! They went all the way to Greenland to get them.
Dani:
The walrus bones!
Tom:
(laughs)
Iszi:
Exactly.
Bill:
But I love that sort of stuff of how things develop. 'Cause they're just limited by the specific technology or the specific material. Because we live now in a time where you can kinda just do whatever, 'cause it's magic. You get ink, and you're like, eh, you can write it however you want, with whatever you want, whatever way you want. You're so free. But so much of this early development is like, well, can't go sideways. Went sideways. Sorry, man. I love that.
Tom:
In my notes— You were right, Bill. Even if it didn't split, the lines of grain would make it less legible.
Dani:
That's clever. I didn't think of that at all.
Tom:
Yep. You can even see that in other ancient scripts. Some early Latin texts will avoid making horizontal lines, just in case it made it less legible or split the wood.
Dani:
Man, that being said, how much of trying to read actual ancient Roman tablets have you done? I had to do that for university. They're impossible to read. I don't know why. There's just something about the way they've written and what little we have of
Bill:
No spacing.
Dani:
the actual preserved things. It's hard to actually distinguish the letters a lot of the time.
Iszi:
I hear loads of Mesopotamian archaeologists just going, "Puh-lease."
SFX:
(others laughing)
Iszi:
Because... Have you seen cuneiform? Have you seen what that's like?
Dani:
You know, that's fair.
Iszi:
That is like, no. So, yeah, I mean, this is the world's smallest violin held by...
Dani:
That's all brutal.
Iszi:
Mesopotamian and Akkadian people just going, no.
Bill:
I was trying to read— I was trying to translate this tablet for six months. It turned out a bunch of chickens just ran in some mud.
SFX:
(Tom and Iszi laugh)
Iszi:
It's not that, I mean, if only. More like ants with boots on. That's...
SFX:
(Iszi and Bill giggle)
Tom:
My favourite sort of runic fact, I did this as a video a long time ago, is the Bluetooth symbol on your phone is a made-up rune made by combining H for Harald and B for Bluetooth. And it is the name of an actual Viking that Bluetooth was named after, and it is his rune.
Dani:
Lovely.
Tom:
And that is on everyone's phone.
Iszi:
Which is so cool.
Tom:
So yes, Old Norse written in runes avoided horizontal lines because it might split the wood or make it less legible. Dani, I think it's you for the next question. Whenever you're ready.
Dani:
Absolutely. This one has been sent in by Ray. So thank you so much, Ray. Levar is a regular at his local casino. At the blackjack table for several hours, Levar's winning bets combine to make a fairly good profit. However, his losing bets don't cost him a dime. Why does the casino allow this? And one more time. Levar is a regular at his local casino. At the blackjack table for several hours, Levar's winning bets combined to make a fairly good profit. However, his losing bets don't cost him a dime. Why does the casino allow this? We're all big casino heads here, right?
Iszi:
So, been so regularly, yeah. Is this a ruse that the casino have got? So they employ Levar to look like he's winning, so that other people get attracted to the game and think it's easy? A bit like those people who play, you know, hide the, you know.
Tom:
Three-card monte.
Iszi:
Whatever it is.
Tom:
Yeah.
Iszi:
Exactly.
Dani:
(laughs)
Iszi:
That— Is that what's going on?
Tom:
Which is still going on, by the way. If you go on Westminster Bridge or a couple of tourist sites in London, there are scammers there still doing, you know, find the lady or any of those scams. The cups and balls. And they run away when the police arrive. And they successfully bilk tourists over and over and over again. You would think everyone in the world knew this scam by now.
Iszi:
Well, maybe they do, and it's just part of the experience.
Bill:
Yeah.
Tom:
(laughs)
Dani:
It feels like it's getting there. But in this case, no. This is not a scam. No one is being fooled by this.
Bill:
Not a scam.
Tom:
When you said Levar, my first thought was LeVar Burton. Who was in... yeah.
Dani:
That is... the only Levar I am aware of.
Tom:
The only Levar I can think of from Reading Rainbow and Roots and Next Generation Star Trek. He doesn't seem like the gambling type. He doesn't seem like the person—
Iszi:
Unless he was wearing his visor.
Bill:
He has the visor on.
Tom:
Yeah.
Iszi:
If he's got Geordi's visor, then he could see through the cards or something like that.
Tom:
Yeah, absolutely, yeah.
Iszi:
And everybody's just so impressed that they're just like, you can take our money.
Dani:
In theory, I don't know too much about his personal life.
Tom:
Wait, but also this is roulette. Wasn't it? No, blackjack.
Dani:
Blackjack.
Tom:
I've got the wrong game. It's blackjack.
Bill:
Hey, Tom. I had roulette in my head as well.
Tom:
Yeah, I dunno why.
Bill:
I dunno why.
Tom:
I wrote down the word 'blackjack', and in my head, there's a ball spinning 'round.
Iszi:
Do you know what it is? It is that Simon Rattle. It's that Simon Rattle. We're hearing that.
Bill:
Simon Rattle rattling about.
Tom:
Yep.
Bill:
Yep, you got it.
Iszi:
There you go.
Dani:
I'm not gonna forget him anytime soon. But to the best of my knowledge, this is not LeVar Burton that we're talking about here.
Bill:
Okay.
Tom:
Okay.
Bill:
It's not some weird thing where he's the dealer? The dealer plays in his part of the thing, but he wouldn't. But I can imagine a dealer playing and not losing money, but he wouldn't make bets. That'd be kind of rude. Or does he have to put up a bet? Is he the ante?
Tom:
The profit is the casinos, but the loss does not cost Levar anything. That would match with Bill saying dealer.
Iszi:
Yeah.
Dani:
Okay. Here's the interesting point. You are correct that Levar is the dealer. However, we are not just talking about, "Ha-ha, technically I'm using the casino's money, so it's all good."
Tom:
(laughs)
Dani:
That is not where we're going with this. So there's something else going on, where he is absolutely actually making some money.
Bill:
He's making bets, but he doesn't lose money when he loses. He's losing his winning bets.
Dani:
Yes.
Bill:
Bets that he makes. Not— It's not just like when you're the dealer, you refer to other people's bets as your bets.
Dani:
I am going to give you a horizontal hand "Ehh?" to that.
Iszi:
It's got nothing to do with the fact that it doesn't cost him a dime, but it does cost him dollars.
SFX:
(Tom and Dani laugh)
Iszi:
Is that?
Bill:
Way more. There's a bit—
Dani:
You know what? The fact that it does mention dimes, maybe this is more of a thing in America than other places.
Bill:
Tips.
Dani:
(points firmly)
Iszi:
So he's playing on the side of the casino, obviously, 'cause he's the dealer. So...
Dani:
To an extent.
Iszi:
To an extent.
Dani:
I do wanna highlight what Bill just said though. Oh, what was that?
Bill:
He's winning tips. There's something to do with him getting tips. He's winning—
Tom:
Oh!
Bill:
Oh, is it just that when the— His bets are referring to the bets at that table. And when people win in blackjack, they toss a coin to their dealer? You tip the dealer if you've had a good day. Like the Witcher? Yeah.
Dani:
Okay. There's a little—
Tom:
(laughs)
Dani:
There's a little slight more detail to it than that. So you are totally right. This is about tipping.
Bill:
Ah.
Dani:
When someone plays, they will often tip, but when not talking about just your standard, "Woo-hoo, I won. Here, have a $20." It's— It works a little bit differently to that. I don't know how much you know about this being a slightly different form of tipping that can take place.
Bill:
When they win, the casino punishes them by cutting off the tips of their fingers.
Tom:
Oh blimey.
Bill:
And giving them— And he pulled— Then he hands him in for a bounty.
Dani:
(laughs)
Bill:
I've seen Casino! I've actually not seen Casino.
Iszi:
I mean, the phrase was 'profit', that is in the question. So...
Tom:
Hmm.
Bill:
How's that spelled? Maybe he gets a message from God every time they win. I was... I was gonna speculate that it's some kind of form of... blackjack ante... So, you know, in poker, it's like, before you do anything, it's like one person has to ante up and put some money out there to be like, here's the money. So we know there's something in the pot. Is there part of other people's bets form like an "anti"? As a bet from the— which counts as the dealer's bet?
Dani:
I wouldn't— It's not like that. There is nothing mandatory about this. But I think that by saying that you've got this sort of side dealer's bet, that is probably what I would consider close enough to what's going on here.
Iszi:
I mean has— I've only played poker once in my life, and that's 'cause my friend Simon told me about it, and I wanted to understand James Bond.
Bill:
Simon Rattle? I didn't know he played.
Iszi:
It's not Simon Rattle, unfortunately. So in my head, poker is called Simon's betting game. And I've forgotten pretty much all the rules. 'Cause unless it's got worker placement, it doesn't feel like a proper game to me. So... I've... I'm not that overly familiar with how the bets work. I know that you can't break over a certain point, and if you do, then you get— you lose your money.
Tom:
I know blackjack has the concept of insurance, but you're not testing the dealer there.
Dani:
Oh, maybe one way of thinking about it could be, where is the money... where is this money coming from?
Iszi:
Do dealers have a little pot that the casino gives them, that they can use to make bets already? Or is it just a case of people are like, he's just taking money off the players, and then replaying that?
Tom:
Wait, do people playing blackjack go, and have one for yourself?
Dani:
It is essentially like that.
Tom:
You don't tip the dealer. You give the dealer money to bet with on your hand as well, so you're both in on it?
Dani:
A little bit. That is essentially it. Yes, blackjack players, if they wanna tip the dealer, they might make a little second smaller bet. And if your main bet wins, the dealer's mini bet wins as well.
Bill:
That's a fun way of tipping.
Iszi:
Because if you've got a corrupt dealer, that's a really good way of winning. If you've got a corrupt dealer.
Bill:
Yes.
Iszi:
I like that.
Tom:
Well, I think the dealers have to follow very strict rules. I don't think the dealers are actually making any decisions. It's just, the casino has a rule that they stand on certain numbers and they hit on certain numbers. So it's not like the dealer can choose to make you more successful.
Iszi:
I've seen magicians, Tom.
Tom:
That's fair.
SFX:
(Bill and Dani laugh)
Iszi:
I know what they can do with cards.
Dani:
I will say when I tried to look up more information about how this worked, I did end up on a lot of websites of people asking, "Hey, do really good roulette croupiers have the ability to decide where it lands?" And a lot of people were agreeing that they totally do.
Tom:
(snickers)
Iszi:
There must be a skill to it. There must be. You just wait for this six to come around again and go. I could do it.
Dani:
How could you get better at Wheel of Fortune if that wasn't a skill that you could have?
Bill:
True.
Dani:
So if there's a player who wanted to tip Levar, then they'd just make a little side bet, and that's Levar's one. And so if they win, Levar wins.
Iszi:
See, if we were cool, we'd have known that.
Tom:
(laughs heartily)
Iszi:
No.
Bill:
No, we don't know that because we're too cool.
Tom:
Which just leaves the question from the start of the show. Why did the British electro-pop duo Pet Shop Boys call their first album Please? Any guesses before I give the audience the answer to that?
Iszi:
Because they really wanted people to buy it?
Bill:
Please, please buy my album.
Iszi:
Pleeeaase?
Bill:
I'm just a little pet shop boy. Please buy my album.
Dani:
So that it would be next to the Beatles album Please Please Me. Was that even an album or just a single?
Tom:
Iszi's closer.
Dani:
Oh, okay.
Iszi:
He's begging.
Tom:
Not quite. They weren't the ones they wanted to say please.
Bill:
To the record company,
Dani:
What?
Bill:
Publish this please. I'm just a little pet shop boy. Please publish it.
Tom:
(laughs) it's a great Neil Tennant impression. Again, not quite. There's one other group of people in the transaction.
Iszi:
Please stock my record, please. In your shop, Woolworth.
Tom:
Okay, there's two other groups of people in the transaction.
SFX:
(Dani and Iszi laugh)
Iszi:
So saying, we've got the record. We got the— Can you press this at the factory correctly?
Tom:
(laughs)
Iszi:
There are three people.
Tom:
Four main weapons.
Iszi:
So who do you need?
Dani:
Let's go from the other end. Customer.
Iszi:
The customer. Please buy it.
Tom:
Yeah, well, not quite. This is the 1980s, I think?
Iszi:
Yeah, would've been, or very late '70s.
Tom:
So what's happening there that doesn't really happen when you're enjoying music now?
Bill:
You go to a shop.
Tom:
You do.
Bill:
And you buy a physical...
Dani:
Hey, I would like to buy an album, please.
Tom:
Correct! Yes!
Iszi:
Amazing!
Tom:
This was, according to their official website, it's so people can go into the record shop and say, "Can I have the Pet Shop Boys album, please?"
SFX:
(Bill and Dani giggle)
Iszi:
Nice, nice.
Tom:
Congratulations to all our players. Thank you very much for being part of the show. What's going on in your lives? We will start today with Iszi.
Iszi:
Yes. Please go to ISZI.com. That's Iszi, I-S-Z-I. You can buy my books. You can listen to my podcast, Terrible Lizards. And you can get links to all my BBC stuff as well.
Tom:
Dani!
Dani:
You can find us at ConsumeThisMedia.com. That will be the umbrella to get you to any of our podcasts that you wanna listen to. Plenty of personal hygiene complaints all throughout those.
Tom:
(laughs) And Bill.
Bill:
Why don't you check out some of the murder mysteries we've been doing this year? You could listen to "The Furtive Fiend". It's maybe got a demon in it. Probably not. Demons aren't real. And there's "Five Little Pigs". It's— There's some fun stuff. That's an adaptation. Come and enjoy it with us.
Tom:
And if you wanna know more about this show, you can do that at lateralcast.com, where you can also send in your own ideas for a question. We are at @lateralcast basically everywhere, and you can catch video highlights regularly at youtube.com/lateralcast. Thank you very much to Bill Sunderland.
Bill:
Thank you for having me.
Tom:
Dani Siller.
Dani:
Thank you so much.
Tom:
Iszi Lawrence.
Iszi:
Been a pleasure.
Tom:
I've been Tom Scott, and that's been Lateral.
Episode Credits
| HOST | Tom Scott |
| QUESTION PRODUCER | David Bodycombe |
| EDITED BY | Julie Hassett at The Podcast Studios, Dublin |
| MUSIC | Karl-Ola Kjellholm ('Private Detective'/'Agrumes', courtesy of epidemicsound.com) |
| PHOTO | Brad ('bjohnsme' on Flickr) |
| ADDITIONAL QUESTIONS | Ray, Bob Weisz, Robert Stevens, Matthew Frye, Daniel |
| FORMAT | Pad 26 Limited/Labyrinth Games Ltd |
| EXECUTIVE PRODUCERS | David Bodycombe and Tom Scott |