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Episode 153: An unequal game
12th September, 2025 • Luke Cutforth, Corry Will and Hannah Crosbie face questions about sinuous streets, sensational sportspeople and suspicious stories.
Transcription by Caption+
Tom:
Every day, thousands of people in the UK see the bank card details of Mrs. Natalie West, but her bank doesn't mind. Why? The answer to that at the end of the show. My name's Tom Scott, and this is Lateral. Welcome to a 2025 vintage of Lateral. Once more, we've uncorked seven questions to tantalise the intellectual taste buds, and leave a lingering finish of satisfaction. And speaking of things that are robust, earthy, and occasionally fruity, let's meet the players.
SFX:
(guests giggling)
Tom:
First, we have wine critic for The Guardian and regular on Sunday Brunch. Hannah Crosbie, welcome back to the show.
Hannah:
Hi, that was an amazing tasting note. I'm very, very impressed.
Tom:
(laughs) Was it anywhere near accurate? 'Cause I do not understand tasting notes or anything. Like how they're— How does that work?
Hannah:
Oh, well, I mean, you've just gotta find a way to sort of bring the wine alive. Although I will say, what was it? Long and something?
Tom:
A lingering finish of satisfaction.
Hannah:
A lingering—
Tom:
Which honestly, as I read that, I thought that's a bit questionable.
Hannah:
It's a bit questionable. I dunno whether you'll be able to. But yeah, long, satisfying finish is one.
Tom:
(chuckles)
Hannah:
And then I'll also say that probably won't make the cut, but... I read the phrase "creamy finish" more times than a day than I would care to admit. So...
SFX:
(both laugh)
Hannah:
And that goes right past them. But yeah, that was absolutely brilliant. Thank you.
Tom:
(laughs) Well, good luck on the show today. This is the fourth episode you've been on, I think?
Hannah:
Yes indeed.
Tom:
How are you settling in?
Hannah:
I'm settling in just great. I'm settling in just great. Really enjoying my time here. I always have, kind of always followed this pattern of being really quiet at the start, and then being really gobby towards the end of the episode.
Tom:
(laughs)
Hannah:
So we'll see if that happens.
Tom:
Joining you today, we have two more returning players from the Sci Guys podcast. It is Luke Cutforth and Corry Will. And last time, we went to Corry first. We're gonna go to Luke this time. How are you doing?
Luke:
Hello! I'm good, thank you, Tom. What I wanna know is, am I the robust one, the earthy one, or the a little bit fruity one?
Tom:
I feel like you're the only one who can answer that question. If you wanna lock down one of those three, and pass the other two to the other players, you are welcome to.
Luke:
I want to be a little bit fruity. So, you know.
Tom:
Okay.
Luke:
What else you wanna be? You guys decide between you.
SFX:
(group laughing)
Tom:
And apparently quite disappointed with that, Corry Will.
Corry:
Well look, we'll say I'm more than a little bit fruity and very robust, so...
SFX:
(Tom and Corry laugh)
Corry:
Yeah, thank you for having us again.
Tom:
Tell us about Sci Guys. What's going on? What are you working on at the minute?
Corry:
We're funny guys, and we talk about science, a little bit, but mostly we try to understand the silly stories that we come across. Isn't that right, Luke? Is it right? I hope so.
Luke:
Yeah, especially me. I really try to understand them.
SFX:
(Corry and Luke crack up)
Tom:
Well, I have heard it on the grapevine that we are ready to go. So let's raise our glasses for question one. Thank you to David Ellis Dickerson for sending this question in. What is a stravenue? I'll say that again. What is a stravenue?
Hannah:
Surely a portmanteau of street and avenue, no?
SFX:
(Luke and Hannah snicker)
Tom:
Yeah, that's the first bit. There's something more to it though.
Corry:
Well, when a street and an avenue love each other very, very much...
SFX:
(group laughing)
Luke:
Is it like a little alleyway that connects a street to an avenue?
Corry:
What is an avenue, first of all? Because I know there's boulevards, there's avenues, there are lanes, there are all these different words
Luke:
Yeah.
Corry:
for the same thing. It's just a thing you either go down, or a car goes down. We don't need all the different names for it. But what specifically is an avenue?
Luke:
I think avenue probably does have a specific... It's like, you know how you have a street that is called something End. I think that means it doesn't lead anywhere. Something like that.
Corry:
Oh yeah, like a cul-de-sac. Yeah.
Luke:
Yeah. And so I think avenue probably does have some genuine meaning, even if we kinda use them interchangeably now in sort of layman's speech.
Hannah:
Mhm, like whether it's residential or...
Corry:
They do all have...
Luke:
Yeah.
Corry:
They do all have definitions. I'm aware of that. I just think they should all be abolished. All streets are equal.
Hannah:
Oh.
Luke:
Wow.
Corry:
Sort of thing.
Luke:
Okay.
Corry:
Yeah, mhm.
Luke:
You're for the abolition of different words for streets.
Corry:
Yeah, I walk on the left hand side of the street.
Luke:
Are you for that they all mean the same thing? Or are you for...
Corry:
(laughs)
Luke:
we only use street, and the rest of the other words are illegal?
Corry:
(laughs)
SFX:
(Luke and Tom snicker)
Corry:
Oh, it depends on whether I'm authoritarian or not. Is that a word?
Tom:
Yeah.
Corry:
I don't know.
Hannah:
Authoritarian's a word, yeah.
Corry:
Yeah.
Luke:
But avenue no longer is?
SFX:
(group laughing)
Corry:
So, what— What is a str— A street? What is a street? A street is just a road. But what's an avenue specifically? Is it something– I feel like it's something that leads to— That's what all roads do. They all lead to something else. Someone please stop me. I'm spinning out.
Hannah:
Yes, yes. I've heard. Is it something that connects two streets? Is it, you know, some, more residential? Is it more like a High Street, where there's more likely to be shops, as opposed to people living or driving through there?
Luke:
Does anyone have any memory in their life of something that was called Street and something that was called Avenue? And can you think about them, and try and figure out what was different about those things?
Hannah:
The only avenue I can think of is Shaftesbury Avenue.
Luke:
Okay.
Hannah:
But I dunno what's on it.
Luke:
Are avenues pedestrianised?
Corry:
Mm, no. Shaftesbury Avenue isn't pedestrianised, and it's basically the same as... sort of Regent Street, Oxford Street.
Hannah:
But back in the day, when it was named, was it quite different?
Corry:
True.
Tom:
There are other famous avenues and streets.
Luke:
Okay, yeah.
Corry:
Mhm.
Hannah:
Is this Monopoly? We're talking about Monopoly?
Luke:
Ohh! I, literally, this is like, you know, there's that... Billy on the Street episode where he runs around going, "For a dollar, name a woman." And everyone's like, "I literally can't name a woman. Why can't I name a woman?"
SFX:
(others laughing)
Luke:
And Tom's like, "Name an avenue." And I'm like, I can't name an avenue, Tom! Not even for a dollar!
Tom:
As we record this, an episode of Jet Lag: The Game has just come out, where we got challenged to name 100 women.
Luke:
Right.
Tom:
And... Once you start going to categories, I tried to do alphabetical order. Start with names, with A, with B thing. It's still so difficult.
Luke:
I was listening to the radio yesterday, and a guy was doing a quiz. He got the first nine questions correct. The prize was £2,000, and the 10th question was name a fictional character. And he couldn't, and he lost £2,000.
Tom:
Ohh!
Luke:
Any fictional character! (giggles)
Hannah:
What a way to go.
Corry:
But it's hard when you're under pressure.
Tom:
Right?
Corry:
You know what I mean? It's like saying name a historical figure, and all you can think of suddenly is Sherlock Holmes.
SFX:
(group chuckling)
Hannah:
That's so weird. That was the character that I was just thinking of!
SFX:
(Tom and Corry laugh)
Luke:
We're broken, fundamentally.
Hannah:
(chuckles)
Tom:
That said, if you can think of... particularly maybe in fiction, some famous streets or avenues that you might know of... you may stumble on the clue that solves this.
Corry:
It's, I mean, I think someone said is street residential? 'Cause there's 221B Baker Street.
Luke:
I live on a street.
Corry:
(snickers)
Luke:
I do. It's called Street. I live there, is my point.
SFX:
(Corry and Hannah snicker)
Corry:
Street Street.
Luke:
I live there.
SFX:
(Corry and Luke chuckle)
Luke:
I'm not gonna dox myself, Corry.
Tom:
Any of you been to New York?
Luke:
Oh, Fifth Avenue. Okay, fine.
Hannah:
Oh yeah, you've got Avenue A. Avenue... yeah.
Corry:
Oh my god. Streets... One of them will go sort of north–south. The other one will go, east–west basically. 'Cause they're—
Hannah:
So is a stravenue diagonal?
Corry:
Yes it is, Hannah!
Luke:
Ah!
Hannah:
Ah!
Corry:
Ah!
Luke:
Really? An avenue is a street going the other— at a right angle? That's crazy.
Hannah:
I had no idea.
Tom:
So, traditionally... avenue is this sort of picturesque street with trees on both sides. But you are right, Corry, that the definition in the modern day is just whatever sounds good on the end of the name.
Luke:
Ohh!
Tom:
New York's grid system, at least in Manhattan, has streets going one way, avenues going the other. So does Tucson, Arizona. And Tucson has some diagonal streets called stravenues.
Luke:
And they're not even slightly ashamed of that.
Tom:
(laughs) They're really not.
Corry:
(laughs)
Tom:
Let's go to a question from our guests then. We will start today with Hannah.
Hannah:
Okay. So this question has been sent in by Nick Bastian. Why do thousands of women owe their life to the Hubble Space Telescope? I'll say it again. Why do thousands of women owe their life to the Hubble Space Telescope? Now name 1,000 women.
SFX:
(Tom and Luke laugh)
Corry:
Uhhh...
Luke:
Hillary Clinton.
Corry:
John Lennon.
Hannah:
Name them all.
Luke:
Name every— You—
Hannah:
Name every woman.
Luke:
You're not sexist? Name every woman.
SFX:
(group laughing)
Corry:
I think we should just call them all Mary and be done with it. That's it, you know.
Hannah:
"Every Woman," Chaka Khan. She's every woman.
Tom:
Eyy!
Luke:
Ah, very good.
Tom:
I wanted to make that joke, and I couldn't think who sang the song, and that's probably sexist of me, so...
Corry:
Mhm, mhm.
Hannah:
Well, there we go. 999 to go, guys.
Luke:
Okay, so starting point, I'm guessing there's a bunch of technology that was invented accidentally adjacent to space exploration. So I'm guessing that's a good— I think the MRI was to do with going to the moon or something. So this— and it's specifically saying, why do thousands of women owe their lives to... So is it something to do with... mammograms or cervical smears or something like that?
Hannah:
The two lady parts.
Luke:
The lady parts! The lady operations.
SFX:
(group giggling)
Hannah:
You...
Corry:
I would love a podcast of just Luke listing sort of female, feminine...
Luke:
Yeah. Yeah.
Corry:
sort of procedures. I'd love that. I wanna see how long you can go.
Tom:
Also, I don't know how the Hubble Space Telescope will be connected to cervical smears, but if that turns out to be the actual answer here, it's spectacular.
Luke:
Well, they— you see, Tom, they're cleaning the inside of the telescope.
SFX:
(Tom and Hannah groan)
Luke:
And the whole person's like, hang on a second.
Tom:
Oh... no.
Corry:
The telescopes use mirrors, and you gotta use mirrors to kinda see what you're doing when you're smearing.
Luke:
Tell me you've never had a cervical smear without telling me you've never had a cervical smear.
SFX:
(guests giggling)
Corry:
(laughs increasingly)
Tom:
We're three men. Oh, blimey. Okay, yeah.
SFX:
(Corry and Luke laugh profusely)
Hannah:
Oh man. Yeah, it's just one guy cleaning the entirety of the telescope with a little tiny swab.
SFX:
(guys laughing)
Hannah:
There has to be an easier way to do this.
Luke:
Well, to be fair, because you have to... this is the total tangent, but... you do have to have, you know, when you have mirrors in space and things like that, you have to have such clean mirrors that I wouldn't be totally surprised if they had to go over it with tiny levels of precision to make sure there was no dust. But I don't think that's what the answer is.
Corry:
It's probably cleaner than most people's cervixes. Yeah, definitely, Luke, yeah.
Tom:
Cervices?
Corry:
Cervixes.
Tom:
Anyway.
Hannah:
Oh-kay.
Corry:
Cervices?
Tom:
The way they clean telescope mirrors is often with carbon dioxide, with like dry ice. Because it will just blast all the dust away, and then just sublimate off, leaving nothing behind. Also, not a good plan for a cervical screen. (laughs) Sorry.
Hannah:
Yeah.
Tom:
I tried to keep my face straight on that. It didn't happen.
Corry:
Ooh, okay.
Hannah:
So, you're right, Luke. It is to do with developing specific technologies alongside the creation of the Hubble Space Telescope. It's to do with a computer algorithm to find meaningful differences in brightness.
Luke:
Oh-kay!
Corry:
I think the easiest way to think about this is if we look at something that we solved for men about, ooh, 50 to 100 years before the Hubble Telescope was sorted, we'll be in the right region.
Tom:
(laughs)
Corry:
For... for, you know, when they sorted it for women.
Tom:
No, I think—
Corry:
That's usually how those things go.
Tom:
I think Luke might have been on to the right thing with mammograms there.
Luke:
You know, guys, you both teased me for saying the two lady operations, but might...
SFX:
(group laughing)
Luke:
One of those was the right operation. So I'm guessing this is some kind of scan. They're doing a scan of tissue, right?
Hannah:
Mhm.
Luke:
And... based on how much whatever they use to do a mammogram, as in which type of... Is it... It's not an X-ray obviously, but whatever they're sending through to scan the tissue, how sort of dense it is to detect, for example, a cancer... comes up as brighter or darker. And that technology was originally developed to look for something out of a picture from a space telescope.
Hannah:
Yep, you're pretty much there. So I think I'll just give it to you. It was a spinoff project that helped to improve breast cancer detection. So the Hubble Space Telescope was launched with a mirror – you're right to say mirrors – that had not been ground into the correct shape. The optical error meant that the initial images were fuzzy. Until a mission to fix the problem could be launched, scientists set about developing an algorithm to extract as much meaningful data out of the flawed images as possible. But medical researchers recognised the similarities between working with fuzzy Hubble images and mammogram images, and employed the same techniques to advance their own detection methods. So you got there pretty quickly. I just wanted to hear you guys talk about breasts for a couple minutes.
SFX:
(guys snickering)
Luke:
Well, most of it was about cervixes, unfortunately.
Hannah:
(snickers)
Corry:
Well, you should listen to us talk off pod. That's all us three talk about all the time.
Hannah:
Right, right.
Corry:
Yeah. Me, Tom, Luke, cutting it up about breasts.
Tom:
Don't drag me into this!
SFX:
(Luke and Corry cackle)
Luke:
Tom, you started the group chat.
SFX:
(guys laughing)
Corry:
Yeah, man.
Tom:
Thank you to Becky for sending this next question in. Becky enters an English church and stands on a box. She puts her thumb on her nose, with her hand held vertically and fingers stretched out. What is she about to do, and how does this procedure help? I'll say that again. And for those watching in video, we'll cut between what everyone else is doing. Becky enters an English church and stands on a box. She puts her thumb on her nose, with her hand held vertically and fingers stretched out. What is she about to do, and how does that procedure help?
Hannah:
She's counting to six.
Tom:
Everyone has a different and wrong interpretation of what those gestures mean.
Hannah:
Okay.
Luke:
Okay.
Tom:
At one point, Corry, you had your hand horizontal, which...
Corry:
Yeah, I realised that.
Luke:
Oh, sorry, yeah. Firstly, Tom, you say that this question was sent in by Becky, and also the question is Becky. Is it about herself?
Tom:
Yes. Yes, this is a personal anecdote from Becky.
Luke:
Oh!
Hannah:
So was it thumb or finger on nose?
Tom:
Thumb on the nose.
Luke:
Okay.
Tom:
Hand held vertically, fingers stretched out. Right, Corry. You've got it right now. It is one hand doing this. It is basically, thumbing your nose.
Luke:
She's going, "Na na-na na na."
Hannah:
Yeah.
Luke:
(giggles)
Corry:
Okay.
Hannah:
In a church.
Luke:
What is she about to do?
Corry:
In a church, on a box.
Hannah:
Is it to see how far away something should be from her face?
Luke:
Mm.
Tom:
Ooh.
Hannah:
If she's wearing a hood or a habit or something like that?
Tom:
Yeah.
Hannah:
Too close and it— oh.
Tom:
That's a very good deduction.
Hannah:
Of a— Is it right?
SFX:
(guests laughing)
Tom:
Well, I would need to know what the thing might be. But actually, that's straight there. For measuring distance. Same sort of thing that... radio people sometimes do for microphones, one hand span distance. But there's a couple of other reasons that it's that specific thing. Also, she's standing on a box.
Hannah:
She's standing on a box.
Corry:
My mind goes to... This might be just the film in me, but an apple box, 'cause she's too short
Tom:
Mhm.
Corry:
behind the pulpit. That's where my mind goes. It's— The pulpit's the bit from where you speak, right?
Luke:
There must be some relevance to the fact that you— she's got all of her fingers stretched out, rather than just the one finger. Because when you're doing it to your mic, it's your finger to your little finger, whereas she's got all of them stretched out. So is this like, is it utilising the third dimension in some way? Or the second dimension, sorry.
Tom:
No, actually I think that's just a preference of, of... this. I think you could do it either way.
Hannah:
Is it so something doesn't get damaged? Is she restoring a painting, and she, you know, has to stand on a box to be able to do that, but then can't be breathing too closely on it, unless she kind of damages it?
Luke:
Is Becky the lady who restored that painting in a really funny, bad way?
SFX:
(group laughing)
Hannah:
Gosh, I forgot about that.
Luke:
(laughs)
Corry:
Wow.
Hannah:
Never forget, never forget.
Luke:
That was actually that she just sneezed on the painting, and she was like, "Okay, from now on, I'll always be one stretched out hand away from the painting."
Hannah:
Yes.
Corry:
I fear there will be people listening to this who are younger than that meme in and of itself. Right, that happened quite a while ago.
Luke:
Take a history lesson.
SFX:
(guys laugh in turn)
Tom:
Not everyone needs to stand on a box here. And you're right, it is for height.
Luke:
So this is a, probably a height that was designed for men in the church.
Tom:
Yeah.
Corry:
Mhm.
Luke:
And so she's standing on a box for that reason.
Corry:
Well, what do they let men do in church that they don't let women do? Other than almost everything?
SFX:
(Luke and Hannah laugh)
Corry:
(chuckles)
Luke:
Ah, okay. What would you do in... Okay, so they... You might have a robe fitted, in a church.
Corry:
Does it matter what sort of kind of church, as in what sort of denomination? Because I know that sort of Catholics, and only a couple other sort of denominations tend to do sort of this repentance thing, where you— or whatever it is, where you go and speak to someone in a box. They're in a box. You're in a box. You tell them all the stuff you did wrong. They're like, "It's all good. You're going to heaven still."
Hannah:
But they can't be too close. Like, oh my god, I can't believe that happened.
SFX:
(guests laughing)
Tom:
(chuckles)
Corry:
Just look through the gauze. "Alright, is it... What? Who are you?"
Hannah:
(chuckles)
Tom:
The exact denomination isn't important, but this is an old English church.
Hannah:
Old English church. Are there bells? Is it something to do with bell ringing?
Tom:
Keep talking, Hannah, keep talking.
Hannah:
So you have to be a certain height. If you are too far down on the rope, it will take considerably more effort to ring the bell. And why is she doing this? To, I guess, assess—
Tom:
For those who don't know about bell ringing, how does it work?
Hannah:
You stand underneath bells with various people, and you kind of like... ring them in order to create a beautiful tune. But you have to pull down quite hard on that bell. And then it goes all the way back up. So it's very important to let go. Yeah.
Tom:
Yeah. The bells are up in the tower. Meters and metres above. And you've got these long ropes dangling down. And there is a lot of skill in timing that correctly. But yes, you've got most of the pieces here. She's about to ring the bells. What's with the hand gesture? Luke, you definitely got some of that.
Luke:
Well, she can't be too close to the rope.
Tom:
Yep.
Luke:
For some reason. Is it gonna come up and smack her in the face if she's too close?
Tom:
Yeah, that's it.
Luke:
Yeah.
Tom:
Absolutely right.
SFX:
(Corry and Luke giggle)
Tom:
It is really important to make sure that the rope is centred on your body, and... not too far away, not too close, because you need to be able to catch it when it comes down... and it needs to not hit you.
Luke:
(stifles giggle)
Tom:
So, yes. The reason that Becky goes into a church, stands on a box, and puts her thumb to her nose is to make sure that she's not gonna get hurt by the bell rope that she's gonna be pulling.
Hannah:
Oh, wow.
SFX:
(Luke and Corry crack up)
Hannah:
God, stress— dangerous job.
Tom:
Surprisingly dangerous, yeah.
Luke:
Is the box because the rope is too high up, and she can't reach it comfortably?
Tom:
Yeah, yeah.
Luke:
Wow, okay.
Tom:
Corry, your question. Whenever you're ready.
Corry:
So this question has been sent in by Sam Valiant. In a well-known board game, the pieces of one player are slightly larger than the other for psychological reasons. Which game, and why? I'll read that again. In a well-known board game, the pieces of one player are slightly larger than the other for psychological reasons. Which game, and why?
Luke:
Chess for insecure men.
Tom:
I've gotta sit this one out. Luke, Hannah, it's on you.
Corry:
(guffaws)
Luke:
You know this already, Tom?
Tom:
I... Here's the thing. I don't know know this.
Luke:
Uh-huh.
Tom:
But I'm pretty sure, and I'm gonna gamble on sitting out from this one. If it turns out I'm wrong, you can all mock me roundly for it. But I'm pretty sure.
Hannah:
But yeah, two-player game. I was first thinking chess and the psychological reasons being that your perception of dark pieces against a white background means that they appear smaller. So they make the black one slightly bigger, so that they seem like the same size.
Corry:
I mean... yes?
Luke:
(wheezes)
Corry:
But not chess.
Hannah:
But not chess.
Corry:
(laughs)
Luke:
Okay, what other? Draughts? Tiddlywinks?
Hannah:
Checkers.
Corry:
I fear that this question is just going to become you...
Tom:
Name that board game!
Corry:
Naming games! Yeah. I mean, it's an ancient board game.
Luke:
Oh, go.
Corry:
So... yeah.
Tom:
Yeah.
Luke:
Yeah.
Corry:
So, yeah. And I mean, you've got it right. It's go. Because of that sort of optical illusion. Dark pieces will look a little bit smaller. So you make them a little bit bigger, so that you don't feel like you're doing...
Luke:
Insecure.
Corry:
Sort of worse or insecure, yeah. Yeah, spot on, wow.
Tom:
There was a brief moment where my brain went, it's those pool tables where the cue ball comes back to a different bit, rather than... You know those— Okay. You know, pool and snooker tables where you put some coins in and you push, and the balls come out.
Luke:
Ahh yes.
Tom:
You get to play one game.
Luke:
The white ball shouldn't go back in. Yeah.
Tom:
Right, the white ball comes out. And I think they do that with just sizing. That ball is slightly smaller or slightly larger. And that was where my brain was going before I put together that that is probably not what we're talking about here.
Luke:
That would make sense. But if you wanted to make an automated, like a scoring system before you had electronics, if you had like, the red balls are sorted one way, and the white— the yellow balls are sorted the other way.
Tom:
But as it is, it's go.
SFX:
(guessers chuckling)
Corry:
It's go, yeah. Quite literally in your username, Tom. As soon as I started reading it, I was like... This is something that Tom will just know. I know that.
Luke:
TomSka is 'cause he loves ska music. TomScottGo is because he loves go.
Corry:
(giggles profusely)
Tom:
Thank you to Marc for this next question. As of 2024, this feat has been achieved by 12 different Olympic athletes. The last seven to do so demonstrated great versatility. The first five were fortunate with their timing. What is the feat, and why the difference? I'll give you that one more time. As of 2024, this feat has been achieved by 12 different Olympic athletes. The last seven to do so demonstrated great versatility. The first five were fortunate with their timing. What is the feat, and why the difference?
Corry:
Threesome in the Olympic Village.
Hannah:
Ahh.
Tom:
(laughs uproariously)
Luke:
It's definitely more than 14 Olympians who've done that, Corry.
Hannah:
No, they can't, because of the cardboard beds. They can't.
Corry:
Yeah.
Hannah:
They can't have threesomes because of the cardboard beds. Yeah, they made all these strange prefab furniture to literally prevent people from sleeping together.
Luke:
Yeah, my dad worked on the Olympic Games in 2012, and I was told that it was a real big problem, 'cause all these fit, horny people are just living together all the time. (laughs)
Corry:
Yeah, it is. It's an actual problem.
Tom:
I just— That was a dangerous sentence to start with "my dad". I was like, I don't know where this is going.
SFX:
(guests laughing)
Luke:
He's the reason the rule exists.
SFX:
(group laughing)
Luke:
Where do you think I came from?
Corry:
Oh dear.
Hannah:
So 12 Olympic Games ago. 48 years. What happened? It was the, what'd you say? It was the first. It's kind of like more or less split in half.
Tom:
No, 12 different Olympic athletes have done this.
Hannah:
Ah, okay.
Tom:
The last seven demonstrated great versatility. The first five were fortunate with the timing.
Luke:
Is it winning more than one gold medal at the same time, at the same Olympics, in two different sports? No, apparently.
Hannah:
Timing.
Tom:
Keep talking.
Corry:
With timing. Is it to do with breaking both a world record and an Olympic record at the same time? 'Cause those are different...
Luke:
Mm.
Hannah:
Ah, yeah.
Corry:
Those are different things.
Tom:
No, I think by definition, if you break the world record, you break the Olympic one.
Luke:
True. Yes, yes.
Corry:
Oh yeah. Obviously. Yeah. But it's possible to break an Olympic record without breaking a world one. So yeah, fair, hm.
Luke:
Okay, so they must have— It must have been that a bunch of people did it accidentally, and then some people developed the skill because a bunch of people had done it accidentally after that, like a Fosbury flop style moment.
Corry:
Did the ones with fortunate timing come after the ones with great versatility? No, the other way around. Okay, yeah, okay, good.
Tom:
You were right about winning two medals. That bit was right.
Luke:
Okay. So it's winning two medal in two different mo— The reason I said that was because of the versatility bit.
Tom:
Mhm.
Luke:
So I'm thinking it must be in two different events. Or at least two— maybe two different sports or two different categories or lengths of... winning the 100 metre race and the 200 metre race.
Corry:
Mhm.
Hannah:
Mhm.
Tom:
Kind of.
Corry:
I'm stuck on versatility. I just feel like that has to do with different... different events. But I can't get my head around anything else.
Tom:
Yeah, you are right. Those last seven, the versatile ones, medaled in two different sports.
Luke:
Did the five who were lucky... Is it five that were lucky?
Tom:
Yeah.
Luke:
Did they all happen in the same year or at the same time?
Tom:
Yes, they did.
Luke:
So I remember there was one amazing thing. This might be completely left of field. I remember this one amazing sport where basically... a team came up with this idea, I think it was in the Velodrome, I don't know if this was Olympics, but they basically went really slow... on their first lap, and everyone else could see it, but then they then just went at normal speed, and by the time they got to the end of the race, everyone had forgotten... Oh, sorry. Not really slow. Really fast in their first lap. By the time they got to the end, everyone had forgotten. And these— The— This team basically all won by an entire lap. Because everybody had forgotten they were supposed to overtake them. I probably explained that horribly.
Corry:
No, I know what you're talking about, Luke. Yeah, they lapped them. And then everyone forgot that they'd been lapped. So they all thought that they were neck and neck, and kind of relaxed.
Luke:
Yeah.
Corry:
When, you know, the other people were coming... coming first up against them.
Luke:
Are the— so the five luckys are all on the same team? They're all winning it at the same time?
Tom:
No, but it was all in 1924.
Corry:
I was gonna say, is this to do with one of the Olympics where... a bunch of people didn't show up? Now, I can't remember if it was... I feel like I'm mixing things. 'Cause I know Olympics were funny around wars. But there was also a time when... That's an understatement.
SFX:
(Corry and Tom chuckle)
Corry:
I feel there was... There... Maybe I'm making this up. I feel... there were. There was an Olympics where... a bunch of people refused to go for some reason or another.
Tom:
Oh, that's happened a few times, yes.
Corry:
Yeah. Is it to do with winning two medals for two different countries? And the accidental thing was in 1924, one country became a different country?
Luke:
(stifles giggle)
Corry:
Or... (laughs)
Tom:
Those seven, incredibly versatile. Two different sports. The first five have managed the same achievement... but just with one sport. There's something else that changed, that came along in 1924.
Luke:
One sport was split into two different sports.
Tom:
The sport wasn't split.
Luke:
The people were split.
Corry:
Oh, the genders were slit—split. Yeah. They were split, they were split sex.
Tom:
Oh, no.
Corry:
No? No, no. That wouldn't have happened then. Women, no, never mind.
Luke:
Oh, the country was split. Oh, Germany! East and West Berlin. Is it East and West Germany?
Hannah:
Austria-Hungary?
Corry:
No, that would've been...
Tom:
Something else was split. Or more, invented.
Hannah:
Was— Were horses being used for certain sports?
Luke:
Horses were invented in 1924.
Hannah:
Horses were invented. No, I'm saying like, horses got replaced by something in 1924, and then instead it becomes an equestrian sport.
Tom:
Oh, it's not equestrian. It's a different category.
Luke:
Mm.
Tom:
I— Mm.
Luke:
Oh, pole vault. They invented poles.
Tom:
(laughs)
Hannah:
(snickers)
Tom:
If I tell you that the five athletes, the lucky ones... were figure skaters and ice hockey players.
Luke:
So okay, maybe the ones with incredibly lucky timing were already at the Olympics when... ice hockey was invented or when it became an Olympic sport. So they quickly competed when nobody else had a chance to enter.
Corry:
Is it, oh, is it Winter Oly— Indoor and out— Is this Winter Olympics? Or indoor and outdoor?
Tom:
Corry... You've got the key word there.
Corry:
Winter, winter. Oh, did it— Winter split in the— Winter Olympics split from the Olympics.
Tom:
In 1924, yes.
Corry:
Ahh!
Luke:
Right.
Tom:
So what's the feat? What have they achieved?
Luke:
So they won in the main Olympics, and then the Winter Olympics was created that winter, and they won the same award again.
Tom:
So ice hockey was in the 1920 Summer Olympics. Figure skating was as well. The Winter Olympics came along in 1924, and those sports switched over. So you're right, Luke. That's someone who could win in both. So I'm just looking to put that together. What did those seven athletes later on with two sports manage to do?
Luke:
They won a medal at the Winter Olympics and the Summer Olympics.
Tom:
Yes, that's it. There are only 12 people in history who have both a Summer Olympic gold and a Winter Olympic gold.
Luke:
Oh!
Hannah:
Ah.
Tom:
Yes, the seven more recent athletes have medaled in both a summer and a winter sport, which is a hell of a skill. The five athletes from 1924 and earlier had a Summer Olympic gold because there was no Winter Olympics for their sport. And then they split the two apart, and so they have also got that accolade. Luke, whenever you're ready.
Luke:
Okay. My question is from Lachlan C. If you copied what Annie did in October 1901, you'd be fined either $10,000 or $25,000, depending on where you land. What is it? I'll ask it again. If you copied what Annie did in October 1901, you'd be fined either $10,000 or $25,000, depending on where you land. What is it?
Corry:
My mind immediately goes to Annie the musical, but I actually don't know when that's set. Because I think I last watched it as a child and everything in the past, just kind of the same era.
Hannah:
I think it was like 1920s.
Luke:
That classic bit of Annie the musical (holds back laugh) where she's fined $25,000.
Tom:
(laughs)
Corry:
Well no, you— If you did the same thing, you would be. She wasn't, because it's a musical.
Luke:
Okay. Okay.
Corry:
(laughs)
Tom:
No one gets fined in musicals.
SFX:
(guests laughing)
Tom:
He says starting— It felt like there should be music soaring in the background there.
Luke:
Bursting into song. (laughs)
Hannah:
Yes. You're starting your own number.
Corry:
Yeah.
Tom:
I do recognise the name Annie. I gotta sit out of this one.
Luke:
Ah.
Hannah:
Okay. So, I'm wondering like, if Annie was in the air, and whether it was something that she landed herself, or whether she was landing from something. Or in something.
Luke:
Okay. I'm not telling you yet.
Hannah:
Okay.
Luke:
You can think about it for a while.
Hannah:
You can have a little think.
Luke:
(snickers)
Corry:
So, Annie... Wait, is— So Annie is a land— Annie's landing. And if you were to do that, you would be fined a lot of money.
Luke:
Yes, depending on where you land.
Hannah:
Is Annie a human?
Luke:
Annie is, as far as I know, a human, yes.
Tom:
(chuckles)
Hannah:
Okay.
Luke:
She's not a bird.
Hannah:
She's not a bird. Annie the famous pigeon.
Luke:
Not someone running around fining birds for $25,000.
Tom:
(laughs)
Hannah:
(snickers)
Corry:
So is this some kind of Annie flying some aircraft that's illegal in some countries but not others?
Hannah:
I was thinking hot air balloon for some reason.
Luke:
Okay, I will—
Corry:
Yeah.
Luke:
Okay, I will give you this now and head you off. It is not flying any kind of aircraft.
Hannah:
Okay.
Corry:
So it's jumping. Where is it illegal to jump?
Luke:
(snorts) That sounds like a Tom Scott YouTube title.
SFX:
(guests laughing)
Tom:
It's illegal to jump here. It is. That's fair.
Corry:
Oh, let me get my red T-shirt and gray hoodie out.
Luke:
Just a quick side note, me and— I was at a party with Tom recently, and he kept on saying things that sounded like YouTube titles. (giggles)
Corry:
(wheezes)
Tom:
(sighs)
SFX:
(Luke and Corry giggling)
Luke:
Just in person. He was just spewing YouTube titles in the middle of just a normal conversation.
Corry:
Depending on where you land. So it's not flying.
Luke:
Yeah.
Hannah:
Are you, if you jump on certain stars in the Hollywood Walk of Fame, do you get fined more depending on how beloved the celebrity is?
Luke:
You might. That's nothing to do with what we're talking about. It might be the case. You can go stamp on Donald Trump's star and see what happens.
Hannah:
You get money if you do that.
SFX:
(Corry and Luke laugh)
Tom:
I know Muhammad Ali's star is on the wall rather than the floor. Because he didn't want the name of Muhammad to be trodden on.
Luke:
Oh, very good.
Hannah:
Heard that, yeah.
Corry:
That's very nice, yeah.
Tom:
It's utterly irrelevant to this question, but, you know.
Luke:
Joke's on him when gravity decides to stop existing.
SFX:
(Tom and Corry laugh)
Hannah:
Maybe you're landing on something endangered. Somewhere where you're not supposed to be, obviously. So...
Luke:
Mhm.
Hannah:
Maybe you're landing on something endangered, or a...
Luke:
(snorts) Depending on whether you decide to land on an endangered animal.
Corry:
(laughs)
Luke:
If you— It's $25,000 if you land on a leopard. It's $10,000 if you land on a rhino.
Corry:
I think the fine is least of your worries.
Hannah:
Yeah. (chuckles)
Corry:
Yeah.
Hannah:
Did you say where it was, Luke?
Luke:
I did not say where it was, but where it is is relevant.
Corry:
So Luke, hold on. You said it's nothing to do with... flying or aircraft.
Luke:
It has nothing to do with the— Yeah. The definition of the word 'flight' you're using there is not helpful to you.
Corry:
So is it— it's so— It's not someone, say, jumping from an aircraft or anything to do with that. That's going down the wrong track.
Luke:
That is going down the wrong track, yeah. The— Where you land is not landing any kind of vehicle.
Corry:
Oh my god, hold on. Land. Is it to do with... I'm thinking gambling or something? Where...
Luke:
Well, Corry, what you do in your spare time, that's up to you.
Tom:
(laughs)
Corry:
I don't just do it in my spare time, Luke. I do it when I should be working too.
Luke:
(hums dramatic stab)
SFX:
(group laughing)
Tom:
I do have the over-unders on who gets this question by the way.
SFX:
(guests snickering)
Luke:
Very good, very good.
Corry:
That's why you sat out, yeah.
Tom:
Lateral is now sponsored by instant gambling betting apps, so...
SFX:
(Corry and Luke laugh)
Luke:
Yeah, have a think about why you might be fined different amounts of money based on where you land.
Hannah:
In 1901. For some reason, I felt like it was in the US, yeah.
Corry:
1901, yeah.
Hannah:
But maybe not.
Luke:
1901 isn't necessarily particularly relevant.
Hannah:
Okay.
Luke:
But it's just that Annie did do this. I mean, Annie did do this in 1901, yes. But if you did it now, you would be fined these amounts of money.
Corry:
1901, that's when Queen Victoria died, isn't it? Is that relevant? What else happened in 1901?
Luke:
Maybe she was doing this because Queen Victoria died. I don't know.
Hannah:
(snickers)
Tom:
Am I right in saying, Luke, that those dollar amounts are not quite as different as they may appear?
Luke:
You are right in saying that, Tom. Yes, you are— Yes, if you assume that dollars are the same for each of those amounts, then you would be wrong.
Corry:
Oh my god, hold on. Oh my god, this is going over Niagara Falls or something, right? And if you land in the US or Canada, they have different currencies. Both dollars. Canadian dollars, American dollars.
Luke:
Spot on. Yes, that's it.
Hannah:
Well done, Corry. Well done.
Luke:
So this is the story that Annie Edison Taylor was the first person to survive, crucially, jumping over the Horseshoe Falls at Niagara Falls, which she did in 1901 in October. She went over, she fell 160 feet in a large barrel. Iconic. Using a harness to stabilise herself and a mattress to cushion herself and 200 pounds of ballast to hold her upright. So the US–Canada border goes directly through Horseshoe Falls. And depending whether you land on the US side or the Canadian side, you'll be fined 10,000 US dollars if you land in America, or 25,000 Canadian dollars if you land in Canada. And this is designed to discourage people jumping off of the Horseshoe Falls in a barrel.
Hannah:
Wow. (snickers)
Corry:
Man, things were really boring before we invented phones.
SFX:
(group laughing)
Tom:
We have had a couple of questions fall quickly, so we have unlocked the shiny bonus question.
Luke:
Ooh.
Tom:
Thank you to Katherine Q for sending this in. After reading The Night Before Christmas and several other festive tales, one can conclude that a common perception about Santa's reindeer is wrong. How? I'll say that again. After reading The Night Before Christmas and several other festive tales, one can conclude that a common perception about Santa's reindeer is wrong. How?
Corry:
I'm worried that I do know this.
Hannah:
Yeah, I'm thinking about The Night Before Christmas, and I'd always keep on saying The Nightmare Before Christmas.
SFX:
(guys crack up)
Hannah:
I'm thinking about The Night Before Christmas. Does he mention Rudolph? Because it doesn't fit within the original rhyme.
Luke:
So I happened to have The Night Before Christmas literally etched into my brain, because my mum read it to us every night, at Christmas, on Christmas Eve, without fail. On— I don't think it— Does it mention Rudolph? And now I'm questioning myself. But it does say: "On Dasher, on Dancer, on Prancer, on Vixen, on Comet, on Cupid, on Donner, on Blitzen." I don't remember a Rudolph.
Hannah:
Then does it go, "Oh yes, sorry, Rudolph too." Yeah.
Luke:
Oh, and also Rudolph, yeah.
Hannah:
Oh yeah, Rudolph, that guy.
Corry:
It's many other Christmas tales or stories you mentioned as well, Tom, right?
Tom:
Yes.
Corry:
I'm really worried. I'm really worried I might know this. So I don't want to give it away. I might have to... I might have to sit out.
Tom:
Alright, that's fine.
Luke:
Oh, well, I mean, would it be that... I mean, the natural answer to what Hannah and I are saying is that there are not... the commonly believed number of reindeer in Santa's set of reindeer.
Tom:
Not for this one, no. You're right that Rudolph came along later. Rudolph is not in the original poem. Rudolph first appeared in 1939, with a different author. But this would actually apply to Rudolph and at least one of the other reindeer.
Luke:
Possibly the fact that they can fly.
SFX:
(Tom and Hannah laugh)
Corry:
No, actually they did find a species of reindeer that can do that.
Luke:
I think in the— I think they land on the roof in Night Before Christmas. So, they mu— I mean, unless they can climb. Which would be a real plot twist to Christmas.
SFX:
(Tom and Corry laugh)
Tom:
Oh, that's a horror movie. That's eight reindeer climbing up your walls.
Luke:
(imitates grunting) (laughs)
Corry:
Again, they can... (laughs) Wait, they can fly, right? So why would they need to climb up the wall?
Luke:
Well, if they can't— I mean, they must— they— I know that they land on the roof in the story. I'm pretty sure.
Corry:
I see.
Luke:
So unless they can fly, then they must be climbing up the walls like some kind of horrible creature.
Corry:
Or Santa has a reindeer cannon, obviously.
Hannah:
Are they— What's— How does the end of that question go again, Tom? What, is it something that we've misunderstood?
Tom:
One can conclude that a common perception about Santa's reindeer is wrong. How?
Hannah:
Are they all girls?
Tom:
Yeah— Well, yes.
Hannah:
Oh?
Tom:
Yes, they are. Why might that common perception be wrong? And Corry, if you knew it, this is where you come in.
Corry:
I do know this, yeah. So yeah, it to do with the antlers. So males and females shed their antlers at different times of year. So in December, no male reindeer is going to have any antlers.
Tom:
Yes.
Hannah:
Oh, that's great.
Corry:
Because they've shed them by that point, but the females haven't done.
Luke:
What a good thing we have a massive nerd on the podcast.
Tom:
You're absolutely right. You even got the detail that they shed by early December. You nailed every detail on my notes. Very well done. Which brings me to the question from the start of the show, which given the reactions of the panel when I said it, I think might also fall very quickly. Thank you to Stuart Clary for sending this one in. Every day, thousands of people in the UK see the bank card details of Mrs. Natalie West. But, the bank doesn't mind. Why? And that just fell for all three of you, I think. Someone take it.
Hannah:
Is it just NatWest? Natalie West? Yeah.
Corry:
It must be NatWest, right? The bank, Natalie West shortened to NatWest.
Tom:
This is the dummy account that NatWest Bank use on their advertising. If you see an advert where someone from NatWest is holding up a card, it will say on it, "This is the card belonging to Mrs. Natalie West." Congratulations to all our players. Some questions rattled through very quickly there. What's going on in your lives? Where can people find you? We'll start with Hannah.
Hannah:
You can read my Guardian column every week, and also follow me on social media at @HannahCrosb, C-R-O-S-B, to see when I'm next on Sunday Brunch doing wines.
Tom:
Corry Will.
Corry:
You can find me and Luke at @SciGuysPod everywhere, and you can find me at @NotCorry everywhere also.
Tom:
And Luke Cutforth.
Luke:
You can find me, as Corry said, at @SciGuysPod on our podcast. Or you can find me at @LukeCutforth everywhere else.
Tom:
And if you wanna know more about this show, you can do that at lateralcast.com, where you can also send in your own ideas for questions. We are at @lateralcast basically everywhere. There are regular video highlights at youtube.com/lateralcast and full video episodes on Spotify. Thank you very much to Luke Cutforth.
Luke:
Thank you!
Tom:
Corry Will.
Corry:
Merci.
Tom:
Hannah Crosbie.
Hannah:
Thank you very much.
Tom:
I've been Tom Scott, and that's been Lateral.
Episode Credits
| HOST | Tom Scott |
| QUESTION PRODUCER | David Bodycombe |
| EDITED BY | Julie Hassett at The Podcast Studios, Dublin |
| MUSIC | Karl-Ola Kjellholm ('Private Detective'/'Agrumes', courtesy of epidemicsound.com) |
| ADDITIONAL QUESTIONS | Nick Bastian, Sam Valiant, Lachlan C., Stuart Clary, David Ellis Dickerson, Becky, Katherine Q, Marc |
| FORMAT | Pad 26 Limited/Labyrinth Games Ltd |
| EXECUTIVE PRODUCERS | David Bodycombe and Tom Scott |