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Episode 157: A red rubber ball
10th October, 2025 • Macy Gilliam, Toby Howell and Neal Freyman from 'Morning Brew' face questions about tortuous things, terrible typefaces and talented tans.
Transcription by Caption+
Tom:
Where would you find two arms above an eye, above a foot, above a throat?
The answer to that at the end of the show. My name's Tom Scott, and this is Lateral.
Today we have three returning players from Morning Brew who continue, just for transparency's sake, to not sponsor this podcast. They are well known for a business newsletter that is sharp and incisive.
And I can attest to that. I printed one out and got a paper cut.
Hopefully standing by with antiseptic and a Band-Aid, first we have Neal Freyman.
Neal:
Hello.
Tom:
Welcome back to the show. How did you find it on your first outing through Lateral?
Neal:
It was like... Sorry to use a baseball metaphor, but it was kinda like going into a game without warming up in the bullpen first as a pitcher.
Tom:
(laughs)
Neal:
You can use a soccer metaphor anywhere you want. But it took a while to get used to it. But once you were in the middle innings, we were throwing fastballs.
Tom:
I love how you went for a sports metaphor and not a business metaphor. Despite everything.
Neal:
I mean, you know, what's in my head 99% of the time is sports. Business, 1%.
Tom:
Well, also joining us, the other half of Morning Brew's morning business podcast. Toby Howell, welcome back to the show.
Toby:
Thank you so much. I was shocked by our collective ability to...
Tom:
(laughs)
Toby:
go so far in the wrong direction, but then also bring it back in the right direction at the end.
Tom:
Sometimes it loops 'round. Sometimes you say the silly thing, and it loops around, and it's correct.
Toby:
Exactly.
Tom:
You should give a plug for the podcast.
Toby:
Yeah, if you like listening to our voices on this podcast, go check out our real podcast at Morning Brew Daily. It's on all podcast platforms, and if you like business news, but nothing too serious, give it a listen.
Tom:
And the last member of Morning Brew joining us today: Macy Gilliam, welcome back.
Macy:
Thank you so much. So happy to be back.
Tom:
Last time you were here, you said you were learning magic for a YouTube video on Morning Brew?
Macy:
Yes. I became a magician for a video. I had a real magic show with 100 paying audience members. And it really put my skills to the test. So everyone should go check out the video and see how it went.
Tom:
Can I ask, why? What's the shtick that gets that to a business YouTube channel?
Macy:
Yeah, so I work at a business news company. But sometimes, that's boring. So I thought, how could I make really fun business news content? And I figured, what if I go try a bunch of jobs for myself and just kinda show you what that's like? I think of it as, you know when people watch the Olympics and they go, I wish there was one regular person out there running with them
Tom:
(laughs)
Macy:
to see how good the pros are.
Tom:
Yeah.
Macy:
I'm the regular person out there. And you can see how bad I am and how bad maybe you would be compared to a normal magician. Or other jobs.
Tom:
Well, I'm sure you'll be above average on the show tonight, as will everyone else. And while I gently wipe my paper cut blood off my script, let's B positive and not O negative as we get pumped for question one.
Thank you to James for this question.
A guide is leading a group of schoolchildren around the Paine Art Center in Wisconsin. The first exhibit she shows them consists of two copies of the same chair, placed next to each other. What is the difference between them, and why did she show this first?
I'll say that again.
A guide is leading a group of schoolchildren around the Paine Art Center in Wisconsin. The first exhibit she shows them consists of two copies of the same chair, placed next to each other. What is the difference between them, and why did she show this first?
Neal:
Toby, you're the only one of us who's lived in Wisconsin.
SFX:
(Tom and Toby laugh)
Toby:
I know. I feel like from watching previous episodes of Lateral, whenever a place is mentioned, people go like, why is this place important? Let's dive into it.
And I'm wondering if this is a question where Wisconsin's just a red herring or... it's just where it's taking place.
So... all this to say, don't rely on me, and let's think about it. (laughs) About the chairs specifically. Did you say Paine Art Center? Is that just someone's name?
Tom:
That is just someone's name. As it's a group of schoolchildren being led around in this question, I'll just— I'll cut that off there and just say, yes. P-A-I-N-E, Paine Art Center.
Toby:
Okay, Paine. Oh, well, Thomas Paine. I know there's the Milwaukee Museum of Art, which is this beautiful thing, but I don't think that's the Paine Art Center. Yeah, I'm back on Wisconsin now.
Macy:
I wonder if... they're like... You said there're two copies of the same chair?
Tom:
Yes.
Macy:
I wonder if... I've seen before at a resale store that does vintage reselling, they have a fake Louis Vuitton bag and a real Louis Vuitton bag. So you can see the difference in production quality, and you can learn how to spot a fake and learn why buying from a certified reseller can be helpful.
I wonder if it's something like that. If they're like, this one was made maybe mass produced, and this one was handcrafted or something.
Toby:
Are they identical chairs? Are they the same visually when you look at them?
Tom:
Not anymore.
Macy:
Oooh? I wonder if they were like one was used, and one was kept in storage, or one was used outside?
Or maybe a historical event happened in one of the chairs. It's like the theatre seat where Lincoln was shot, and there's blood on it, and the other one's clean.
We're going gruesome, sorry.
Toby:
It does feel like the fact that there's schoolchildren, because like your teacher says, "Hey, look at these chairs first." So it's to teach them some sort of lesson.
And I'm wondering if the lesson is, I don't know. When I think of chairs and schoolchildren, they're always sticking gum on stuff, or like they're being— They're not treating it very nicely. So it's like a lesson of how to treat things properly, and how not to treat things.
Tom:
You're getting very close there.
Macy:
Okay.
Neal:
Whether it's a famous chair, like one built by Frank Lloyd Wright or something, or if it's a mund— more a mundane thing that illustrates something else.
Tom:
They could've actually used two of anything here. It happens to be chairs.
Toby:
It feels like, "This is your brain, this is your brain on drugs" type thing.
Tom:
Yep.
Toby:
Of this— Oh, maybe it's smoking. Ah, that's what it is. It's like this chair was in... It's like a fabric chair that's been in a house that has smoke in it, and you can see how dark and sooty it is. And then the other chair hasn't been near smoke, and it's pristine and nice.
Macy:
I really like that he started his guess with "That's what it is."
Toby:
(giggles loudly)
SFX:
(Tom and Neal laugh)
Toby:
I keep doing that.
Macy:
It's good to have a confident guess. I like that.
Tom:
It shows confidence. It's wrong, but it shows confidence.
Macy:
Okay, but Toby was close with the gum thing and an example of teaching kids how to behave.
Tom:
Yes.
Macy:
You said was close. Okay.
Tom:
Yes. I think Macy putting it as how to behave is very much the rule here.
Toby:
(sighs) What do kids do? What do kids—
Neal:
Talk. Talk out of turn.
Macy:
I wonder if it was literally just an artifact at a museum that a kid broke, and now they have it on display to teach other kids. Like, oh, when we say "Don't touch the stuff", don't touch the stuff.
Tom:
That's the lesson. You're absolutely right, Macy. That is the lesson
Toby:
There you go.
Tom:
that they're trying to teach. That's why they show it first.
Macy:
Okay.
Tom:
But that's not quite the difference between the chairs.
Macy:
I wonder if it's like the oils on skin... degrading the chair, and it shows that process happening to the chair rather than it being fully broken.
Tom:
Yes. You've got kind of all the individual pieces here. What is the guide telling the kids to do here?
Toby:
Don't climb on the sculptures, right? Or don't touch the sculptures.
Tom:
So why are there two chairs?
Macy:
Oh, they are supposed to touch one of them.
Tom:
Yes!
Macy:
And they're not supposed to touch the other.
Tom:
Yes. Absolutely right.
Toby:
Okay.
Macy:
Got it.
Tom:
One chair is actually displayed in a see-through box. The other chair is put out in the open, and the guide encourages the kids to touch that one chair.
And it is in a terrible state. You can tell, it's been played on. It's been almost destroyed.
And it is the museum guide's way of explaining to children why they have the rule "do not touch".
Toby:
So none of the kids were smokers then, is what you're telling me?
SFX:
(group laughing)
Tom:
Well, so this is personal anecdote from the question writer. And this was an exhibit that James saw during school trips as a child. We do not know how old James is. So, you know, if it was the '40s and '50s, honestly... he might have been.
Toby:
(laughs) You never know.
Neal:
If I were a kid seeing that, I'd be like, oh, everything I'm about to see in this museum has a do-not-touch version and a touch version.
SFX:
(others laughing)
Neal:
So if I was going around saying that I couldn't touch anything, I'd be like, well, what the heck was that at the beginning?
Tom:
Macy, it is over to you for the next one.
Macy:
Okay.
This question has been sent in by Brian.
Brian's mother came home to find a puddle on the floor. She got rid of her crock pot, even though there was nothing wrong with it. How did this clear her conscience?
One more time.
Brian's mother came home to find a puddle on the floor. She got rid of her crock pot, even though there was nothing wrong with it. How did this clear her conscience?
Tom:
There's a very old lateral thinking puzzle about a puddle on the floor, which is the melted murder weapon that has been used. And... I feel like it's not that. I feel like our question writers—
Macy:
No, there's no—
Tom:
Yeah.
SFX:
(guys crack up)
Macy:
There's no suicide and block of ice.
Toby:
Yeah. Is it water on the floor? Or is it just a liquid on the floor?
Macy:
It's just a liquid on the floor. It's not water.
Tom:
Okay.
Toby:
Okay. So the crock pot... The way my crock pot's been used is like, you put the lid on, it cooks forever, and then there's the release valve too, that you kind of can blow steam out of, that condensation escapes it.
Neal:
That's a two-in-one pressure cooker.
Toby:
Yeah, that might be— Well, crock pot is technically— I'm thinking of Instapot too. But so a crock pot does put it under pressure, or does it not? Is it just slow cooking?
Tom:
I think a crock pot is just slow cooking.
Toby:
Just slow cooking? So there's none of that release of it.
Neal:
A crock pot does plug into a wall.
Toby:
Crock pots smell good. You know, when it's cooking. You put the short rib in there.
And I'm wondering if it attracted some sort of wild— Because the thing that's standing out to me here is she wants to clear her conscience here. And so I'm wondering if the smells attracted some sort of wildlife or some sort of person who came and got a little too curious.
And I'm— the liquid to me is like... like urine or something. Something got into the kitchen.
Tom:
A bear.
Toby:
That wasn't supposed to be.
Tom:
A bear. 'Cause feeding bears is bad.
Toby:
(laughs) Or bear in kitchen is bad.
Tom:
So I'm wondering—
SFX:
(both giggle)
Tom:
Yeah, that's true. Bear in kitchen, bear's having a great time...
Toby:
(laughs)
Tom:
But you don't wanna domesticate them.
Neal:
Could it have been her pet that peed on the floor?
Toby:
That's kinda... the aligns of where I was thinking too. It's like the smell attracted...
Macy:
You guys are right, that it has something to do with the smell. You're definitely on the right track with that. I am wondering why you think the smell would cause them to pee.
Toby:
(chuckles) Yeah.
Neal:
No, not cause them to pee. They— It is— The puddle is—
Tom:
Yeah. That's how she understood that the animal was in there, other than all the other disruption.
Toby:
That's what I was thinking actually what you said, Tom.
Macy:
You're on the wrong track with urine.
Tom:
Good. Excellent. Happy about that.
SFX:
(group laughing)
Toby:
Yeah. Huh. Well, crock pots give off heat. So it could cause something to melt. I mean, I don't know if it's a murder weapon like Tom was... thinking about, but it could hypothetically cause... ice to melt, something to melt. What other liquids would end up in a kitchen though? I mean, lots of it.
Neal:
It's not necessarily a kitchen. We just saw that she got home.
Macy:
She's in the kitchen.
Toby:
I mean, when you boil, when you... cook something poorly in a crock pot, it can boil over a little bit and cause a mess. That feels a little too obvious though, like that she just—
Macy:
No, the crock pot didn't leak.
Toby:
So, smell. She did say it was smell related. And conscience. Clear your— It's— She feels bad about it. And so...
Tom:
So what's she cooking that is sending out a smell that's... ugh.
Toby:
It's not pet related because I keep thinking slobbering dog. Was so— She's— The dog is just sitting there waiting, and the drool is just puddling on the floor.
Tom:
Wait, really?
Toby:
Because... It smells so good.
Macy:
That's exactly it.
Tom:
Ohhh!
Macy:
That's exactly it!
Toby:
(laughs) There we go.
Macy:
The crock pot had been cooking all day, and the dog smelled it, and it wanted it. But then there was no one home to even give it a piece of food or whatever. And so she decided that it was cruel to the dog, and she got rid of the crock pot.
Tom:
Awwh.
Toby:
That is so much saliva.
Tom:
(laughs)
Toby:
If you think about (laughs) a puddle of saliva.
Macy:
A puddle that's still there by the time she gets home from work.
Toby:
Oh my gosh.
Tom:
I assume from the names in the question, and the question writer, that this is like personal anecdote here.
Macy:
This is a personal anecdote. This is Brian's. It was sent in by Brian, and this is something that happened to Brian's mom.
Tom:
Awh.
Thank you to Elliot for sending in this question.
Created by two members of RepresentUS in 2019, the font Ugly Gerry has been called "the world's most revolting font". What is the real-life inspiration for the letters?
I'll say that one more time.
Created by two members of RepresentUS in 2019, the font Ugly Gerry has been called "the world's most revolting font". What is the real-life inspiration for the letters?
Neal:
I thought the world's most revolting font was Comic Sans.
Toby:
(giggles)
Macy:
There you go. Neal nailed it.
Toby:
Just— (laughs) Justice for Comic Sans.
Macy:
Nailed the font joke.
Neal:
Nailed the font joke.
Tom:
You haven't seen Comic Helvetica. There is a Comic Helvetica. There is a Comic Serif. People have been riffing on this for a while.
Macy:
That's awesome.
Toby:
Really?
Macy:
Okay, do we know what that group is that they're a part of?
Toby:
RepresentUS.
Macy:
I've never heard of that group.
Toby:
Maybe, should we just play it simple and start talking about revolting things? Because that seems like a decent way to start. But it probably isn't visual, if I had to guess. 'Cause that's too... I don't know, too basic.
Neal:
But there's no other way to experience a font. I haven't tasted one.
Toby:
Well, yeah, no. I actually don't think that's a bad line of thinking though. It's like this gives off the taste of rotten milk or something.
Neal:
Or smell, yeah.
Toby:
Yeah.
Neal:
Or smells really bad.
Toby:
There's syneth— Oh gosh, I don't know if I can pronounce it.
Neal:
Synesthesia.
Toby:
Synesthesia, when you can hear colors or taste fonts. So maybe it was as—
Macy:
That feels too lateral. I was thinking... No, sorry, again, not to shut you guys down.
Toby:
(snickers)
Macy:
I wonder if it's like... If it's related to like... Is it named after a person, Jerry? And it's a person's face, morphed into the shape of letters? And so it's this horrifying thing to look at, that's a person's face all morphed around?
Neal:
I mean, one of the few clues we have to go off is the name of the font. And so I'm thinking Jerry, like famous Jerry's. Jerry Seinfeld, Jerry Garcia.
Macy:
Jerry, the dad from Rick and Morty.
Neal:
Jerry Springer, Jerry, the dad from Rick and Morty. None of them are extremely revolting.
Tom:
And I don't think any of them would fit this. Because Gerry is spelt with a G, not a J here.
Macy:
Okay, that helps. Oh, is it gerrymandering?
SFX:
(Toby and Neal giggle)
Macy:
I wonder if it's a font that's made out of gerrymandered district borders, and that's why it's so revolting is that it's not revolting to look at. Toby was right with synesthesia all along.
Toby:
Please be right.
Neal:
Maybe Macy just came from a protest.
Tom:
Macy is absolutely right.
Macy:
Yus!
Tom:
Ugly Gerry is a font made by anti-corruption organisation RepresentUS, made up of gerrymandered political district maps.
Could someone explain gerrymandering for the folks who don't know it?
Macy:
Gerrymandering is the process of redrawing political districts to draw around an area that would all vote one way. And it draws these really squiggly little lines that looked like salamanders originally, and it came from the word "sallymander"— "salamander" combined with this guy Gerry, who was the first one that did it.
Tom:
Yes, absolutely right. That's basically all the notes I have here. Absolutely right, Macy. This is a gerrymandering font.
Toby:
Macy, that was incredible. I had no idea.
Neal:
That was incredible.
Macy:
Did you not know that about gerrymandering?
Toby:
No, I did not, no. But in Florida, I'm sure there's plenty of political gerrymandering that happens.
I'm from Florida, but what would happen was high school football gerrymandering, where there'd be a really big recruit that wanted to go to this public school. So they literally redraw public districts to recruit people.
Tom:
Wow!
Toby:
So that's Florida public school gerrymandering. Amongst other, I'm sure, other political gerrymandering.
Tom:
Toby, whenever you're ready, you've got a question for us.
Toby:
Alright.
This question has been sent in by Marin.
Anne is a actor in a big-budget theatrical production. It is extremely important that she holds a red rubber ball at certain times, as it could potentially save her life. How?
One more time.
Anne is an actor in a big-budget theatrical production. It is extremely important that she holds a rubber ball, a red rubber ball at certain times, as it could potentially save her life. How?
Neal:
A big-budget production to me seems like it could possibly have animals.
Macy:
Ooh.
Neal:
Scary animals?
Macy:
Animals. I was thinking stunts.
Neal:
Stunts too.
Macy:
So maybe it's like if she doesn't feel safe to do the stunt, she holds up the ball as a signal to do something else.
Tom:
There is a technology in big-budget theatre stuff, where the spotlights will automatically follow the actors on stage. They will— They just have a little tracker or something on them. And I have no idea how it works, but it's just incredibly precise follow spot.
So it is like, is it— Is she throwing it to someone, to move the spotlight or something like that?
Toby:
As far as I know, the material and color of the ball are just a normal ball. So no photon tracking capabilities within this red rubber ball.
Macy:
I like that conceptually though.
Neal:
I was thinking something like, yeah, stunt performance, acrobatics, Cirque du Soleil. I'm ready for my dismount. I'm ready to come on your little swingy thing, and if not, I am going to hold up the ball, and you just keep swinging.
Tom:
Oh yeah, it said big-budget theatrical, rather than definitely a play.
Macy:
True.
Neal:
Yeah. So I was thinking more circusy, acrobats, Cirque de Soleil, something like that. I don't know the intricacies of how those handoffs are done, but potentially, the ball is a signal to someone else to be like, "Don't come near me at this point."
Tom:
I remember seeing footage a long time ago of someone who was... It is a bleak thing, for a demonstration for a TV show. They were being waterboarded. This was back in the Bush administration, for obvious reasons.
And what they did was they gave... gave him essentially a ball or something loud to drop as an emergency, this is the stop signal. You will not be able to talk or think or anything. For this to continue, you have to hold this. And your instinct is to drop it.
So is— Obviously it's not gonna be like that, but is it like, if she lets go of this, it is a signal that something is very wrong?
Toby:
That is true. What we're looking for is what she was doing and what she would— might need to signal. But Tom, that is... 80% of the way there.
Tom:
So, it's a safety thing. But what sort of stuff... do you do in a theatrical production where you couldn't just use your words?
Macy:
I mean, I guess it's maybe they're far away on the stage, or... like the waterboarding thing.
Maybe it's, she's unable to speak at that point. Or they're unable to hear her for some reason, if they're far away, or if it is a signal to an animal.
Neal:
There's only a finite number of ways to be killed
Tom:
(laughs disconcertedly)
Neal:
in a— on a— in a theater, which is like a fake prop gun, a prop sword. If you're in a big, you know, knife fight or something. It's West Side Story.
Macy:
Falling from a stunt.
Neal:
Falling from a high position.
Macy:
Being shot in the back of the head if you're the president.
Neal:
Maybe I missed a couple. Stage fright. You can die from that.
Tom:
I know in Wicked, in performances of that, they have the concept of a "no-fly show". Where if things don't work,
Macy:
Right.
Tom:
if anything's out of place, if some of the safety systems fire or anything like that, there is the person behind-the-scenes, will call that it's a no-fly show at the end of act one, when she's meant to rise up into the sky defying gravity.
And there's just an alternate plan for that moment, where everyone goes, "Okay, that lift's not working. I guess we're just gonna... kinda pretend she's flying here. We've got an alternate plan." And the audience gets a bit confused, because she's very much not defying gravity.
And I'm wondering if... Is it a signal or something like that?
Macy:
You should look up the videos of it. It's so funny. She just stands at floor height, and everyone else lays on the ground.
Tom:
Oh! Huh!
SFX:
(group laughing)
Macy:
It's hilarious.
Toby:
Tom, you are as close as you could possibly be in this, where you're right, it is a signal, and you're right, flight is involved.
Tom:
Huh.
Toby:
And so I guess just connect the last little connective tissue there.
Macy:
I wonder if it's to signal when she's hooked her harness.
Toby:
It has to do with the harness. But so why does it need to be in her hand? Why versus any other place? She's holding it when she gets in the harness, but then what are they looking at that ball for?
Tom:
Because if she drops it, it's gonna make a really loud thud. It's something you can't— No, that doesn't— Because there's gonna be all sorts of stuff going off.
Toby:
That first part of your sentence was on the right track.
Neal:
If she drops it.
Macy:
She drops it. She drops it when... Is it... Is the ball supposed to go up with her when she does the lift?
Toby:
It is. If this harness... presumably is very intense and safe and maybe a little constricting.
Tom:
Oh, oh, I have worn a harness like that. When I did— I did a video where I got harnessed under a helicopter. And in certain type of harnesses, you've got about five minutes before you start having serious pain and you might pass out.
Toby:
It is the... First of all, baller sentence, Tom, to say, "I've been in a harness under a helicopter." Second of all, it warns the crew that she's fainted when in a flying harness.
Tom:
That's it!
Toby:
If she loses, you know, ability to control her hand, it will fall out of her hand. And if you see that ball dropping, that means that... she has fainted while in the flying harness.
Macy:
What show is it?
Toby:
She says, "I work in theatre in Germany, and this is common practice for us."
Tom:
Our next question comes from Nicolas. Thank you very much.
Outside the French city of Bordeaux, there is a small, cylindrical stone with the Swiss flag painted on it. What is it for, and why is it nowhere near Switzerland?
I'll say that again.
Outside the French city of Bordeaux, there is a small, cylindrical stone with the Swiss flag painted on it. What is it for, and why is it nowhere near Switzerland?
Toby:
(sighs) What do we know Switzerland for?
Neal:
Federer.
Macy:
Watches.
SFX:
(Tom and Toby laugh)
Neal:
Watches.
Toby:
Roger F—
Neal:
Chocolate. Banking.
Tom:
That is the first time that a sports reference has been used as, what do we know Switz— Or what do we know country for? That's amazing! I coulda gone chocolate, but Federer sounded better.
Toby:
Cylindrical and stone. Stones seem to— like monument or signify something. Here lies.
Macy:
Right, or a marker of where something happened, or... Cylindrical? I wonder if it's like— I wonder if the stone was excavated. You know when they excavate stone with a cylinder drill, and then it pulls up a cylinder piece of stone. I wonder if it's Swiss stone for something.
Toby:
Pangaea.
Neal:
Clearly this town—
Macy:
Yes.
Neal:
This place has some sort of relationship with Switzerland.
Toby:
So far away.
Macy:
I feel like Bordeaux, I associate with the... I guess just all of France I associate with a lot of the same stuff as Switzerland, obviously.
Tom:
(laughs)
Neal:
Wine.
Toby:
Wine.
Macy:
Wine, cheese, whatever.
Toby:
Swiss wine.
Neal:
So is the cylinder a bottle of wine?
Toby:
Is there anything with longitude or latitude? Because I know Greenwich standard time, right, is...
Macy:
Oh?
Toby:
It's that— That's measured from a point in—
Tom:
It is.
Toby:
Does it have to do with time? Or longitude and latitude?
Tom:
Longitude and latitude is pretty close.
Macy:
That's the point that all Swiss watches are set to. I was right with watches the whole time.
Toby:
You— Are you right, Macy? 'Cause there's caesium.
Macy:
Were you reacting to me, Tom? No way.
Tom:
I'm reacting to both of you.
Toby:
'Cause I know that the universal... I don't know why it's in France, but... I know that the closest atomic time is caesium atoms... twitching or something, or reacting in a way. And that's the closest thing to one precise second.
So I'm wondering if it is like, this is the time standard that all Swiss watches are set to, essentially.
Tom:
Now, between the two of you, you've basically got it. But it's not time. And you sort of said it earlier, Toby.
Macy:
The longitude and latitude. Is it more geographical than time, I guess?
Tom:
Yes, it is.
Macy:
Okay.
Tom:
So what could this marker near Bordeaux be?
Macy:
That would be geographically related to Switzerland?
Neal:
It is zero-zero.
Tom:
Yes, it is, Neal!
Neal:
Oh.
Tom:
Spot on.
Toby:
Zero-zero.
Neal:
Yeah, it's zero degrees longitude and zero degrees latitude. Because it's Greenwich Mean Time going up and down, and then from... up then the other way. So it's also zero.
Tom:
It's not Greenwich Mean Time.
Neal:
Okay.
Tom:
So you're right that it's zero-zero. Zero-zero for what?
Toby:
Longitude and latitude. Is it zero-zero for just longitude and latitude on maps?
Neal:
No, it can't be, because that's the equator. That's why I was like, it's not that.
Macy:
The longitude... may... no.
Toby:
Is it— Does it go back to watches or no?
Macy:
Well, zero-zero and related to Switzerland.
Tom:
I think you've basically got it.
It is the zero-zero for Switzerland for their grid and mapping system.
So in the same way that France has a zero point in Notre Dame, what— I think there's one in the US for Washington, DC. That is where
Macy:
Yeah.
Tom:
all the distances are calculated from, where all the coordinates and grids are marked from. That's the first part of the question. What's it for? Why is it nowhere near Switzerland?
Neal:
Great question.
Macy:
That's such a good question. I wish someone knew the answer.
Tom:
Why would you put your zero point for your country, which loads of countries have, why would you put it outside your country?
Macy:
Is Switzerland too mountainous to get a good measure from it? That, how do you calculate the distance? Are you including the vertical climb?
Or, I wonder if... Maybe it was marked so long ago that the land used to be under one... country, kingdom, whatever?
Toby:
The great conquerors of Switzerland, they used to spread across all of Europe.
Macy:
Well, maybe it was the great conquerors of France.
Tom:
When you're using latitude and longitude, what's one of the annoying things about it?
Neal:
You have to go negative.
Tom:
Yes, you do! So what does this solve?
Neal:
So it solves for— There's no— It just makes— It goes from 0 to 360 for both of them. And you don't ever have to use negative-180 to positive-180.
Tom:
Absolutely right.
Switzerland – Their official coordinate system is called LV95. They put the zero point outside Switzerland so that the numbers are always positive. It's just, it's not degrees. It's just metres.
Every coordinate on the Swiss grid system, it is always six digits, and it's marked so that those two sets of numbers are always gonna be different. You can't confuse one point with the other. It will always be six numbers for east–west, six numbers for north–south in metres.
And if you want that for every point in Switzerland, you put your zero point near Bordeaux.
Neal, whenever you're ready. Your question please.
Neal:
Alright, let's do it.
It's been sent in by GC.
Alyssa had been trying to get a job for a while. Finally, she had a breakthrough when she made use of a tanning salon. What was unusual about her visits there?
Alyssa had been trying to get a job for a while. Finally, she had a breakthrough when she made use of a tanning salon. What was unusual about her visits there?
Toby:
The first thing I thought of is, you know, when you... lay outside, and you write a symbol on with sunscreen or something? And the sun burns everything except for a message in your chest.
Or it's a prank that you pull on your friends, where you draw something on their back when they're at the beach.
So I'm wondering if she... just really showed brand loyalty by tanning the logo of the company
Tom:
Oh! (chuckles)
Toby:
into herself. Like she'd go to the tanning salon and put the logo on her. I don't know why.
Neal:
She did not do that, Toby, but...
Tom:
(chuckles)
Macy:
But someone should.
Tom:
But I'm never sleeping on the beach with you around.
Toby:
(laughs) Right. Do not, do not. (sighs) Okay.
Macy:
I wonder, I'm trying to think of other things. Sorry, is it spray tanning or tanning bed? Do we know?
Neal:
Do you go to a tanning salon for a spray tan?
Macy:
Yes.
Tom:
Yes.
Macy:
If you want a good spray tan.
Neal:
Oh.
Tom:
(laughs)
Neal:
I think it doesn't quite matter.
Macy:
Okay.
Neal:
The method.
Macy:
'Cause I was thinking with a tanning spray tan, you could spray... something else, that you couldn't tan something else another way. Like you couldn't spray your clothes brown or something in a tanning bed. That's, I dunno.
Tom:
Oh yeah, it could be a spray booth. It could be a UV bed, couldn't it?
Macy:
Yeah, but Neal is saying it doesn't matter for this question, which one it is.
Neal:
Let's go with more spray tan than tanning bed.
Macy:
Okay. It feels like she didn't get a tan or something there. That's what— What else could you do there that would be abnormal about your visit? I feel like the main abnormal thing you could do would be to not get a tan.
Tom:
Or to tan something else.
Toby:
And it got her a job.
Macy:
Maybe she had a really bad sock tan, and she was a foot model, and so she just put her feet in, so that there wasn't that bad sock tan. Neal, did I nail it?
Neal:
You did not nail it. You're warmer.
Macy:
Okay.
Toby:
She's trying to eliminate tan lines? It feel too basic.
Macy:
I wonder if she was trying to be a lifeguard, and she wanted to show that she's outside swimming all the time. That's why she's so tan now.
Tom:
What job could tanning make... But, oh wait, no. It was what was unusual about her visits there, right? It's not how did... It's not as simple as tanning got her a job. There was something unusual about her visits there.
Neal:
Her unusual visits to the tanning salon did get her this particular job.
Tom:
She had a watch strap tan that... is disqualifying for her job as a historical reenactor.
Toby:
Oh?
Macy:
I like that.
Tom:
That's solvable with a bracelet. That's solvable in ways that do not involve extremely precise spray tanning. (laughs) You're not gonna be able to colour match with that.
Toby:
Her unusual visits there. She went so many times. She went at odd hours. She—
Macy:
I wonder if she was becoming a salesperson, and she was trying to sell to a particular type of client.
Like I would probably stereotype the front desk girls at a tanning salon. Maybe you were trying to learn about that demographic of probably young women. Like if she wasn't tanning, if she was like, if she wasn't going to tan, she was going to learn about those people or something.
Toby:
The clientele?
Macy:
The clientele or... I was thinking of the girls who worked the front desk. I knew a bunch of girls who did it. So I'm thinking of them.
Neal:
In going to the tanning salon, she was trying to prove that she had experience in this particular field, which is more male dominated than many other industries.
Tom:
So maybe she is only tanning specific parts of her body in order to generate fake tan lines. So it looks like she's been doing something?
Neal:
Correct. (chuckles)
Tom:
But what's the job?!
Toby:
Working outdoors. You're landscaping or something like that?
Tom:
It's specific tan lines to denote you're good at something, that you've—
Toby:
Well, I know in bodybuilding too, you... This doesn't feel right though, but you do spray tan your whole body. It makes your muscles look better.
But I heard tan lines, and that you don't have tan lines in that respect. What jobs do you do outside?
Macy:
Like a coach?
Neal:
Mm.
Macy:
We'll go back to sports. She could be some sort of coach. She could have that cool sunglasses tan line?
Tom:
(laughs)
Neal:
In this particular job, only... one part of her body is outside. The rest is protected from the sun.
Macy:
Oh my gosh. Is she a trucker? And her arm is always out the window in the sun?
Tom:
Ohhh!
Neal:
Yes, yes. She wanted to show that she was a truck driver. So she got one arm tanned, because just dangling the arm out of the window.
Tom:
Wow!
Neal:
Yeah.
Macy:
That's awesome.
Toby:
(laughs) I had no idea that was a thing.
Macy:
I've been wanting to do a video on long-haul trucking, and I was looking into the culture, and that's part of it. I might take a page out of her book when I eventually do that video.
Neal:
This is a real story, apparently. It says personal anecdote, friend of an ex-colleague.
Tom:
Wow!
Macy:
That's awesome.
Neal:
The lengths people go. Yep.
Tom:
Which means we just have the question I asked at the start of the show.
Thank you to Karen Zheng for sending this in.
Where would you find two arms above an eye, above a foot, above a throat?
Good luck on this one, folks. This is not easy.
Neal:
But we're good. We're good at this. My first thought was a Picasso painting.
SFX:
(Tom and Macy laugh)
Neal:
So...
Toby:
Oh?
Macy:
That is technically true, I feel like.
Neal:
Some museum, the Met, I don't know.
Toby:
Arms, foot, throat. Those were the three?
Tom:
Arms, eye, foot, throat.
Neal:
Sinking like a shoe. There's a lot of personifications of shoes. Like tongue and...
Toby:
Oh yeah. Arm, eye...
Neal:
That's it. (laughs)
Macy:
Throat on the bottom. It feels like someone's stepping on someone's neck, but that feels violent. But throat under foot feels like... How else does that get there?
Toby:
Arms was plural.
Tom:
Yes.
Toby:
Eye was singular.
Macy:
Yeah. The rest are singular, I think.
Tom:
Yeah. It's not a living thing.
Macy:
I wonder if it's a piece of machinery that has just names like that. Like my sewing machine has... and there's an arm of it.
Tom:
There is.
Macy:
There's an eye of the needle. Wait, there's a sewing foot. And is the bobbin thread the throat?
Tom:
Yes, it is. Absolutely right.
SFX:
(guests laugh triumphantly)
Tom:
This a sewing machine.
Neal:
Let's go, Macy!
Macy:
Let's go!
Neal:
I think it's fair to say, we would not have gotten it without you, Macy.
Tom:
(laughs)
Toby:
Macy sews so much actually. She makes her own clothes.
Macy:
A lot.
Toby:
So you were—
Macy:
I'm quilting right now. That's my new thing.
Toby:
You were tailor made.
Tom:
So take us through it, Macy. The arms?
Macy:
So the arm is the top part of the sewing machine that's like, it— that goes across.
Tom:
Yep, you've got the needle arm and the takeup arm. The eye?
Macy:
The eye is the eye of the needle.
Tom:
Yes. The foot?
Macy:
The foot is the— It's a presser foot. It holds your fabric down against the machine.
Tom:
And the throat?
Macy:
The throat was actually a guess by me. I'm not up on my sewing machine terms that much, I guess.
Tom:
It's the throat plate. It's the metal plate below the foot, which has a hole in it for the needle to pass through.
Macy:
Oh?
Tom:
And two arms above an eye, above a foot, above a throat is a sewing machine.
Congratulations, players. Another successful episode, I think for everyone there.
Where can people find you? What are you up to? We'll start with Macy.
Macy:
You can find me on Morning Brew's YouTube channel, as well as my own YouTube channel, @MacyAGilliam. I make a lot of random videos about trying different jobs at Morning Brew.
And then on my personal content, I do things like making a sweater from start to finish, starting with shearing a sheep. Stuff like that.
Tom:
Toby.
Toby:
I host a morning podcast, morning business news podcast every single weekday. I co-host it with Neal here.
So if you're looking for a 25-minute rundown on the most important business news stories of the day, tune in at 7 am Eastern.
Tom:
And Neal.
Neal:
I'll shout out something else Morning Brew does, which is do this newsletter that comes to your inbox every single morning.
4.4 million people are signed up to this thing. It's a really, really good digest of similar topics to the podcast. But if you're just a reader instead of a listener, then definitely check it out.
It'll come to your inbox every single morning at 6 am Eastern.
Tom:
And if you wanna know more about this show, you can do that at lateralcast.com, where you can also send in your own ideas for questions. Our episodes are in full video every week on Spotify, and we are at @lateralcast basically everywhere.
Thank you very much to Neal Freyman.
Neal:
Thank you so much. This was a blast.
Tom:
Toby Howell.
Toby:
We had a great time. Macy kinda carried us there.
Tom:
(laughs) And Macy Gilliam.
Macy:
Thank you so much, Tom. It was great to be here.
Tom:
I've been Tom Scott, and that's been Lateral.
Episode Credits
| HOST | Tom Scott |
| QUESTION PRODUCER | David Bodycombe |
| EDITED BY | Julie Hassett at The Podcast Studios, Dublin |
| MUSIC | Karl-Ola Kjellholm ('Private Detective'/'Agrumes', courtesy of epidemicsound.com) |
| ADDITIONAL QUESTIONS | GC, Brian, Maren, Karen Zheng, James, Elliot, Nicolas |
| FORMAT | Pad 26 Limited/Labyrinth Games Ltd |
| EXECUTIVE PRODUCERS | David Bodycombe and Tom Scott |