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Episode 164: The unplayable record
28th November, 2025 • 'Map Men' Jay Foreman & Mark Cooper-Jones and Mithuna Yoganathan face questions about fort fights, cool cash and boda bodas.
Transcription by Caption+
Tom:
In East Africa, why is a motorcycle taxi called a 'boda boda'?
The answer to that at the end of the show. My name's Tom Scott, and this is Lateral.
I didn't think this was going to be a live show today, but apparently it is because I have accidentally plugged part of my desk into the mains. At least it means I can guarantee some electrifying conversation.
Jay:
(facepalms)
Tom:
So let's see what bright sparks we have joining us today.
SFX:
(group cracks up)
Tom:
First, with his head in his hands— I wasn't gonna go to you first, Jay Foreman,
SFX:
(Jay and Mithuna laugh)
Tom:
but you reacted so badly to that sequence of electricity puns that I thought I was getting some resistance from you. So Jay Foreman, welcome back to the show.
Jay:
No, you know what? Thank you so much for— (chuckles) Thank you so much for having me back. Do you know what I'm ashamed about? I actually really enjoyed every one of those puns.
Tom:
(laughs) That's shocking.
Jay:
It's myself I'm ashamed of.
Tom:
How are you doing, Jay?
Jay:
I'm doing really well, thank you. Thank you for having me back.
Tom:
You are here obviously as part of the Map Men, but I feel like I should ask, what else is going on in your life right now? What else are you working on?
Jay:
Map Men has become something that's sort of taking over everything. Because I dunno if I mentioned last time, but as well as the YouTube series, Map Men, Map Men has now become a book. So Mark and I have spent the last few months trying to make YouTube shows and trying to write a book at the same time with one hand on each typewriter.
Tom:
Which means I really should also introduce Mark Cooper-Jones, who is clearly a lot more than the other half of the Map Man.
But please welcome the other half of the Map Men, Mark Cooper-Jones.
SFX:
(guests snickering)
Mark:
Thank you very much. I'm very happy with that. I'm just glad to see that Jay has got a second use out of the arrow that he made to point at the book.
SFX:
(Tom and Jay laugh)
Mark:
That's just, that's it. It's good efficient use of props.
Jay:
Can I tell you what happened?
Tom:
Yeah.
Jay:
I put the book behind me, and I thought, you know, it's perfectly subtle, and it's perfectly acceptable to have your book in the background in a Zoom call. But because of my setup, there was nowhere subtle to put it. It just looked so obviously there on a plinth.
Tom:
Yep.
Jay:
And Mark thought, "You know, you should make it look even sillier." So I used my best felt tip pen and made myself an arrow.
Tom:
Well, thank you very much to both of you for coming back on the show. Mark, how was it for you last time?
Mark:
Do you know? I really enjoyed it. I think I would've... You know, in hindsight, I would've come on if I didn't have a book to promote.
Tom:
(blurts laugh)
SFX:
(Jay and Mithuna snicker)
Tom:
Well, also currently, as far as I know, without a book to promote, our last member of the team today:
From Looking Glass Universe, Mithuna Yoganathan, welcome back to the show.
Mithuna:
Thank you very much. Happy to be here.
Tom:
It will be a few months from recording to when this goes out. So can I ask, what are you working on right now? What's gonna be on Looking Glass Universe by the time that our audience hear this?
Mithuna:
Nothing special.
SFX:
(guests laughing)
Tom:
Oh, come on, sell the show!
Jay:
No, Mithuna, you know what you should do? It's a few months away.
Mithuna:
Yeah.
Jay:
Just come up with a thing you want to do now. And then as soon as it's said, you then have to do it. What better motivation could there be?
Mithuna:
I'm writing a book.
Jay:
No, no. You say, "I've written a book."
Mithuna:
I don't— (laughs)
Tom:
You sold that! I genuinely thought you were writing a book there!
Mithuna:
(laughs) No, I'm not. I have no book to promote, and I will not have a book to promote in a few months.
Jay:
Not with that attitude.
SFX:
(Tom and Mithuna laugh)
Mithuna:
Yeah, that's true.
Tom:
Tell us what the channel's about.
Mithuna:
It's about physics, mostly quantum mechanics, and a bit of mathematics. And yeah, very nerdy.
Tom:
Well, good luck to all three of you on the show today. I'm gonna ask you to power up your brains. Conduct yourselves properly as we zap across to question one.
SFX:
(Jay and Mithuna chuckle)
Tom:
Thank you to Rudy Lathan for sending this question in.
The Brooklyn Bridge opened in 1883. The following year, why did the bridge's trustees feel it was necessary to enlist the help of PT Barnum?
I'll give you that one more time.
The Brooklyn Bridge opened in 1883. The following year, why did the bridge's trustees feel it was necessary to enlist the help of PT Barnum?
Mark:
Ah, PT Barnum.
Jay:
I am gonna write down what I think the answer is, because I think I know this one.
Tom:
Ooh!
Jay:
And if I'm right, I'll hold up the piece of paper at the end, but I think I'm gonna sit this one out.
Tom:
Alright.
Mithuna:
Okay.
Tom:
It is down to Mark and Mithuna.
Mithuna:
Ooh.
Mark:
And that really undermined my moment where I just sarcastically pretended to know who PT Barnum was.
SFX:
(Tom and Mithuna laugh)
Mark:
And obviously, you do know, which is actually quite annoying.
Mithuna:
That is annoying.
Mark:
Jay, obviously, something of a certainly London Bridge... bridges of London, I should say, specialist.
Tom:
Mithuna, do you know who PT Barnum was?
Mithuna:
No. No idea who that is. Am I supposed to?
Tom:
Well, eh, it's very odd. If it were about 5–10 years ago... I think it will be known by a few folks, probably a lot of nerdy folks, certainly.
But have either of you seen The Greatest Showman?
Mark:
Yes, I have, yeah.
Tom:
Mm. I'm pretty sure that's about PT Barnum.
Mark:
Right, okay, so...
Tom:
(laughs)
Mithuna:
Okay, I don't watch any movies. So, who is that?
Mark:
I mean, he's a magician, right? I mean, that was one of those ti— That was one of the two magic films that came out at the same time. The other one had Christian Bale in it.
Tom:
That is The Prestige.
Mark:
Oh no!
Tom:
That's a wonderful brain connection though, because those are both played by Hugh Jackman.
This is the other Hugh Jackman movie where he's on stage a lot.
Mark:
Sorry, this is the film my friend Carrie keeps telling me to watch, and I don't because I don't rate my friend Carrie's.
SFX:
(group laughing)
Tom:
Oh! Oh no!
Mark:
(laughs) Sorry, Carrie. But because of her poor taste, Tom, I know she won't be listening to this podcast, so, it's fine.
SFX:
(others laughing)
Mark:
She definitely, definitely won't.
Mithuna:
Wow.
Mark:
Yeah, I haven't seen The Greatest Showman then, no.
Tom:
Alright. Jay, could you fill in a bit about PT Barnum?
Jay:
PT Barnum was famous for being the man who brought the circus to America.
Tom:
Yes.
Mark:
Right.
Mithuna:
Okay.
Mark:
And so he brought it to America from somewhere else? He was American. He sounds American, doesn't he?
Jay:
From scratch. He made it a thing.
Mark:
So, so, so he was... more of an entrepreneurial man or a circus man, I suppose. Which of those does that make him more? I mean, either way, it doesn't make him an engineer potentially.
Tom:
Circus and entrepreneurship. PT Barnum— like the quote, "There's a sucker born every minute" is attributed to him. So it— Yeah, you've— He was the showman. Also a terrible person, but the showman.
Jay:
A terrible person? But in the musical, they made him out to be a hero with a lovely singing voice.
Tom:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. They did. They really did.
Mark:
So with the circus thing and thinking about the bridge... he— is it that, apart from being a showman, he also has a decent understanding of... Well, I mean the circus obviously involves quite quick and rapid construction. It also involves feats of engineering, with stuff that's high up and things that swing and... and you know, acrobats and trapezes or whatever.
So I wonder if that sort of thing... comes in handy when it comes to a bridge.
What type of bridge is the Brooklyn Bridge? Is it suspension? I can't remember. I don't know.
Tom:
Yes, it is one of the— one of the early suspension bridges.
Mark:
Early suspension bridges, okay.
Mithuna:
I wonder if, because it was one of the early suspension bridges, people were suspicious about whether it worked properly and didn't wanna walk across it.
Tom:
Yes, they were, and you're right. They didn't wanna walk across it.
Mark:
So he unicycled across it.
SFX:
(guests chuckle in turn)
Mithuna:
Or maybe he took an elephant across it or something.
Mark:
Yes, he took the circus across.
Tom:
Yes, he did!
Mithuna:
Oh—?
Tom:
Yes, absolutely right!
And Jay is holding up a sign that I can't read! What's it say there, Jay?
Jay:
Elephants!
Tom:
Elephant!
Mark:
It says elephants.
Mithuna:
Oh, that's so cute.
Tom:
Yes. It was 21 elephants and 17 camels.
Mithuna:
Whoa.
Tom:
And just six days after the Brooklyn Bridge had opened, there was a rumour that the bridge was collapsing, and that rumour caused a fatal stampede. The bridge was fine. But just the rumour that it was unsafe caused a stampede.
So on 17th of May 1884, PT Barnum was hired to parade across the bridge with 21 elephants and 17 camels.
Mark:
So, sorry. A rumour that a bridge is collapsing causes a stampede?
Jay:
How does the rumour spread across the bridge? Like people are whispering to each other while they're walking? "The bridge is falling down."
Mithuna:
Yeah.
Jay:
"The bridge is falling down? Quick, run!" And then they all run while they're already on the bridge?
Mark:
Because... yeah.
Mithuna:
It's so weird.
Mark:
It's quite rare that the answer to a stampede is elephants.
SFX:
(Tom and Mithuna laugh)
Jay:
Well, the ele— (laughs) No, I don't think it was instant. I don't think it was like—
Mark:
No, I know that. I understand that. But I was just trying to figure out that other piece of the stampede puzzle, like how a rumour leads to where the stampede was. Because it was on the bridge, that's...
Tom:
Having just looked this up: A large crowd flocked the bridge on Memorial Day. There was a bottleneck. One woman fell down the stairs, someone else screamed. There was panic. And that just spread as, "Oh, something is wrong with the bridge."
Jay:
So rather than a rumour spreading, it was just people shouting.
Tom:
Yeah.
Mark:
Hysteria. Yeah, yeah.
Tom:
And so was the bridge safe? Yes, but it took a parade of elephants and camels from PT Barnum to start to convince people that it was safe to cross.
Jay, it is over to you. Whenever you're ready.
Jay:
Okay!
This question has been sent in by Josh O.
At Fort Knox in Prospect, Maine, there are two outdoor 'hotshot' furnaces with sloped rails running through them. What were they intended to do, and what development made them totally obsolete?
I'll read that again.
At Fort Knox in Prospect, Maine, there are two outdoor 'hotshot' furnaces with sloped rails running through them. What were they intended to do, and what development made them totally obsolete?
Mark:
Fort Knox.
Tom:
It can't be that Fort Knox. That Fort Knox is in Kentucky. Or—
Mithuna:
Okay.
Tom:
So it's definitely— I dunno if it's Kentucky. That's in the middle. It's definitely not out on the east coast. That's a different Fort Knox. With the gold in it.
Jay:
So yes, you're right.
The Fort Knox you're thinking of is not the Fort Knox where this is, because this is a Fort Knox with a coastline, and the Fort Knox that you're thinking of is the Fort Knox with the gold, which is in Kentucky. Different Fort Knox.
Mithuna:
Okay.
Jay:
There are at least two Forts Knox.
Mark:
So, and do, all these... I presumably it looks— It's still a fort, right? So it's, we're not...
Tom:
Yeah. Well, you know what they say. It's the fort that counts.
SFX:
(Mark and Mithuna snicker)
Jay:
(groans)
Tom:
(chuckles)
Mark:
Oh my goodness. We're still very— We're still within 10 minutes of the electrocution jokes or the electrics jokes.
Tom:
I just heard the sound of 10% of our listeners going, "Oh no!" and just turning off in disgust. I would apologise, but I have nothing to apologise for. I stand by that joke.
SFX:
(Mithuna and Jay chuckle)
Mithuna:
It's pretty good.
Mark:
Okay, so with that ringing in our ears, it's— yes, I've got— I'm not really progressing things by saying it's a fort, but it's a fort. So it has a— It has some sort of fort-like function. Sometimes they hold prisoners. Sometimes they store things. They are sort of known for their impenetrability? Is that sort of right?
Mithuna:
Mm.
Mark:
Well, it's a fort. That's usually what it's about, isn't it?
Jay:
I mean, the word 'fort' comes from the word 'fort', which means 'strongth'.
Mark:
Yes, 'strongth'. So outside— Did you say it was outside the fort, there were two sloping rails?
Jay:
Yes.
Mark:
Yeah. Okay. Over something. So, over a furnace. Was that right?
Jay:
Over a very hot furnace. So two sloping metal rails over a very, very, very, very hot furnace. But why?
Mark:
So it's something going out of the fort and into the sea?
Jay:
Yes?
Mark:
And there's a furnace on the way?
Jay:
Yes...?
Mark:
So we're incinerating something, or just heating something up, to some degree on the way out to the sea. And this could be— Okay, hang on. Is this a little bit morbid?
Jay:
Well, I mean, forts are to do with war, aren't they? So I guess it's all a bit morbid.
Tom:
Okay. I'm thinking... lead shot tower. So...
Mithuna:
Oh?
Tom:
All around the world... There's a famous one in Melbourne, Australia. There's certainly at least one left in the UK. You know what I'm talking about here, Mithuna.
Mithuna:
Yeah, yeah. I drive past it all the time when I'm at home.
Tom:
Yeah, it's a big old tower where they used to make lead shot pellets for armaments. And the way you do that is you get a load of lead, and you heat it up at the top of a tower, and then you just use gravity to drop it down, and it cools into a sphere in mid-air, hits water at the bottom, and you've got your lead shot.
And I'm wondering like, hotshot furnace. Is it something where like, that was meant to smooth it or roll it out or something like that, and you end up with perfectly spherical lead shot instead of the imperfect stuff you get from a lead shot tower.
Jay:
No.
Tom:
Ohhh!
Mithuna:
Awh.
Mark:
Oh god, that would've been so good though.
Mithuna:
Yeah, that was good.
Mark:
That would've been good.
Jay:
Also, what a satisfying process to watch that would be. Watching something start molten and cool down and just goes plop in the water.
Tom:
Yeah.
Mithuna:
Yeah.
Jay:
Could watch that for hours.
Mithuna:
Yeah.
Tom:
I dunno if there are any of those still working. I get the feeling that dropping hot lead through the air is probably not a thing that's acceptable in this century?
Jay:
Depends where you drop it.
Mithuna:
(snickers) Well, I don't know. The one in Melbourne can't be that old. So...
Jay:
Is the one in Melbourne still working?
Mithuna:
No.
Tom:
No, it's a shopping mall.
Mithuna:
Yeah. But I thought that lead shot was like a newer technology replacing an older one. So I wonder if that's sort of similar to what the question was saying, where... it was obsolete by the time that they'd made it.
Tom:
Oh yeah.
Mark:
Is it to do with manufacturing then? I mean is, I mean—
Jay:
It's not to do with manufacturing. I think you've lost sight of the fact that we are in a fort. Not a forge.
Mithuna:
(chuckles)
Jay:
Would you like a time period?
Mithuna:
Yes.
Jay:
We're in the 1860s.
Tom:
That... didn't help. (laughs)
Jay:
(chuckles)
Tom:
So, post-War of 1812. Are they still at war then?
Mark:
They must be at war, surely of this question. Well no, I dunno, maybe not. 1860s. Yeah. Wish I could just sort of rattle off all history and every American decade. But I don't know. 18— did you say 1860s? 1860s.
Tom:
Two sloping rails over a furnace.
Mark:
I can't get the vision of a coffin going down and being incinerated outta my head, but I don't think it would burn quickly enough. (laughs)
Mithuna:
I don't know, I'm confused, because if it was something molten, then you know, it's rolling down these rails, and then it would get cooled by the water very quickly. And that seems like an issue, like it seems like that would cause it to fracture or something. So it doesn't seem like—
Jay:
Well, I'll you a bit of a clue.
Mithuna:
Yeah.
Jay:
By the time the thing hit the water, it wouldn't matter anymore. It's what happens before it might hit the water is what matters.
Mark:
So, is there a bend in the rails?
Jay:
Not necessarily.
Mark:
Okay, is this about just people trying to attack the side of the fortress? So people trying to make their way up the walls, scale the walls, however you do that. It feels like a difficult thing to do from a boat. And you did say it was on the coastal side.
But is this about just like rolling some heavy... essentially sort of ordnance or something like that down, to prevent— to defend, to yeah.
Mithuna:
Mhm.
Jay:
Rolling, yes. Defend, yes.
Mark:
So you're rolling something down to defend. Is it to create a wave, even? Something— No, 'cause the heat. What would the heat be to do with?
Jay:
Well here's another clue to help you along the way. You wouldn't need the furnace to be switched on for this thing to do its job, but if the furnace is switched on, it'll be much more effective.
Mithuna:
Well, it seems sort of interesting that it was to defend, not to attack. So, you know, I would've thought if you're rolling something out into the sea, that it might be some sort of, you know... weapon or bomb or something.
But this seems more like you're defending against a boat coming, which is... seems strange. 'Cause you'd have to— These are— These metal rails are in place. So like they're always gonna be in the same spot. And if the boat sort of arrives somewhere over there, it wouldn't work anymore. So, yeah, I don't get that.
Tom:
And launching... (laughs) a torpedo or something like that is not gonna— If it's warmed up slightly on the way, it's not gonna make much of a difference.
Mark:
(laughs) Yes.
Jay:
Isn't it?
Tom:
Oh?
Mithuna:
Oh?
Mark:
Well, it clearly is in this case. I mean, is it actually— Is there some sort of ignition effect that is going to— that lights a fuse on its way down?
No, why wouldn't you just do it at the top? Make a longer fuse?
Jay:
It's 1860. So how do you normally defend yourself against boats you don't like in the olden days?
Mark:
Well, cannon.
Jay:
Yeah. So why might you want a furnace, and why... would it no longer be effective after about 1860 or thereabouts?
Tom:
Ironsides!
Jay:
Go on.
Tom:
Ships started not being made out of wood. Warships in particular started being made not out of wood around that.
Jay:
Yes.
Tom:
So, cannon wasn't effective anymore, but... why would you heat up a cannon ball?
Jay:
So what were ships made of before they were made of metal?
Mark:
Wood.
Jay:
And what if...
Tom:
Oh my god, did they send burning cannon balls?
Jay:
Yes, they did. So the furnace was there to make the cannonballs very, very, very, very hot just before they got shot out.
Tom:
(gasps)
Jay:
And then the theory was that if an extremely hot cannonball hit a wooden ship, it would set it alight. But it never actually got used, because it was invented just at the wrong time.
Mark:
So wait, the cannonball was— went down the rails on a furnace, but then it went into a cannon, is what you're saying?
Jay:
It says here— Here is the official answer from the piece of paper:
Cannonballs were put on rails in the hotshot furnace. In the event of war, the glowing cannonballs were to be carried in a ladle to one of the cannons, which would fire at the enemy. The aim was for the cannonballs to lodge in the sides of wooden ships and to set them on fire.
However, by the time the fort was completed in the 1860s, ships started to be made from metal. So the fort installed larger 'Rodman' cannon instead. The fort was built on the back of anti-British sentiment, but never saw a war.
This Fort Knox is not the famous gold store, the one in Kentucky, but it's named after the same person.
Tom:
Thank you to an anonymous listener for sending this one in.
What does bar soap have in common with the acoustic guitar and World War I?
I'll say that again.
What does bar soap have in common with the acoustic guitar and World War I?
Jay:
The letter A.
SFX:
(group cracks up)
Tom:
So, so...
Jay:
Thanks for having me!
SFX:
(group laughing)
Tom:
So a long time ago, I was on a game show called Only Connect. It's about, you know, linking things. And there are a lot of things that you can technically link by saying "they're all on Earth" or "they're all human".
Yes, in technical terms, Jay, they do all have the letter A in common, and just like Only Connect, I'm ruling that one out.
Jay:
Alright.
Mark:
Bar soap.
Mithuna:
Okay, interesting.
Mark:
Acoustic guitar, not electric guitar.
Tom:
And World War I.
Mark:
And World War I, which, you know, if any of the three things is gonna completely throw us,
Tom:
(cracks up)
Mark:
it's that huge time period rather than a singular object.
Tom:
It did throw people, that did, you're right.
Mark:
Yeah.
Tom:
Threw a lot of people.
Mark:
I really wasn't expecting World War I to come up after the first two.
Jay:
Is it that they've all been superseded? Because, bar soap is now that handy soap with the special plunger on top. Acoustic guitars are now ukuleles, and World War I is now World War II.
SFX:
(Tom and Mithuna laugh)
Tom:
So... you're halfway there with that, Jay.
Jay:
What?
Mithuna:
What?
Mark:
It's quite a good answer.
Mithuna:
When did the hand soap happen again? It was... 1980?
Tom:
This is actually the second question (giggles) that you three have answered, when we talked about various types of soap.
Mark:
Are you— Is there a subtle hint here? Is there some kind of subliminal message coming from the production team to us three as guests? 'Cause I do object to that.
Tom:
This is sheer coincidence.
Mark:
"Get all the soap questions ready, guys!"
Jay:
Is it about going retrospectively renaming things that weren't called a thing at the time, because they didn't need to be a thing, but now they are compared to the new thing?
Tom:
Yes it is, Jay!
Mithuna:
That makes sense.
Tom:
These are retronyms.
Jay:
Well, you wouldn't have called it World War I at the time. 'Cause people would've been going, "Why, what do you know?"
Tom:
It was the Great War, yes.
Jay:
And the same for bar soap. You wouldn't know that soap is in any form other than bar.
Tom:
Yep.
Jay:
Black-and-white films or silent films, you know?
Tom:
Yep.
Jay:
There's all sorts of things. It makes you question the present day. What are people gonna start calling things that we call normal now, you know?
Mithuna:
Yeah.
Jay:
Non-poisonous phones?
SFX:
(Tom and Mithuna laugh)
Jay:
I looked around the room for inspiration. That's the best I could do.
SFX:
(group chuckling)
Tom:
Human-created art.
Jay:
Oh, that's a painful one. But yeah.
Tom:
There'll be a term for it. Yes, you're absolutely right, Jay. These are retronyms: things that were later renamed because some new technology came along.
Mithuna, we will go over to you for the next question, please.
Mithuna:
This question was sent in by Ólafur Waage.
Why was the original 1979 version of "Gangsters" by the Specials considered to be unplayable by radio stations?
Why was the original 1979 version of "Gangsters" by the Specials considered to be unplayable by radio stations?
Jay:
Some sort of hissing sound?
Tom:
I immediately looked at Jay. If anyone's gonna know about music history, it's gonna be Jay.
Mark:
Does anyone know how it goes? Do we?
Tom:
No.
Jay:
Well, even if we do, we're not allowed to sing it.
Tom:
(laughs)
Mark:
We weren't.
Tom:
It seems reasonably obscure by modern standards.
Mithuna:
Mhm.
Tom:
I know a couple of Specials songs. "Ghost Town" is the most obvious one. And "A Message to You Rudy" is the other one.
Jay:
Alright, and this is— can I ask, was it the lyrics? Were they the reason it was unplayable?
Mithuna:
No, it wasn't to do with the lyrics.
Jay:
Oh.
Tom:
Okay. The Specials were a ska band. 2-tone and ska.
Mark:
Okay. So, so what, unplayable for that reason, then?
Tom:
(laughs) Are you just—
SFX:
(Mithuna and Jay laugh)
Tom:
You're just insulting the entire genre, okay.
Mark:
Yeah, no, sorry. It's ska. We do have a policy. It's on the door.
SFX:
(Tom and Mithuna laugh)
Mark:
Please stop sending in ska. Next year, the policy might change. Try again then.
Because it was— Because the suggestion was... that it was— so 1979. Did you say the original version was unplayable, or did they change the...
Sorry, what was the wording again?
Mithuna:
Yeah.
Mark:
I know you read it twice.
Mithuna:
So, why was the original 1979 version of the "Gangsters" by the Specials considered unplayable?
Mark:
So they potentially had to re-record it for some reason.
Mithuna:
That's right.
Mark:
In order to make it playable.
Tom:
1979 is late enough for commercial radio to be a thing in the UK.
Mark:
Mhm.
Tom:
The BBC used to ban all sorts of records for all sorts of reasons, like commercials.
The Kinks had to re-record a bit of "Lola" because they'd sung "Coca-Cola", and it had to be changed to "cherry cola" because like, that's an advert. Can't have that on the BBC.
But this is commercial radio, like 1979. It's not like they snuck an advert or a product placement in there.
Jay:
Well, that's just it. Was it banned by all radio stations, or was it just banned by the BBC, or was it just banned by Capital Gold?
Mithuna:
So it wasn't necessarily banned. It was just considered unplayable.
Mark:
Did it— Was it about the technology? I mean was, were there... I don't know, and again, I know nothing about this. But like, did— Had they created sounds that could not even be broadcast?
Mithuna:
You're definitely on the right track now.
Mark:
I'm on the right track, okay.
Jay:
Was the hole in the middle of the record a bit too big?
Tom:
They insisted on only releasing it on these newfangled cassettes, and they were not possible to play.
Mithuna:
No. So they did record it on a record. On a regular standard record.
Tom:
Okay.
Mark:
Okay.
Jay:
Was the stereo mixed horribly, so that you had to have both ears in to hear all the lyrics, and it would've sounded rubbish on a mono radio?
Tom:
Oh now, the Beatles kept doing that, didn't they?
Jay:
Oh, Beatles. I do like the Beatles a lot, but they sound horrible on headphones. They've got all the singing in one ear, and all the music and the drums in the other ear, and it's like, it hurts your head.
Mithuna:
It wasn't that.
Jay:
But it was unplayable for a technical reason?
Mithuna:
That's right.
Mark:
So there was no moral reason in it, it sounds like.
Mithuna:
No.
Mark:
It's not like there's a Satanic Panic with the ska music.
Mithuna:
(laughs) Yeah.
Tom:
Skatanic Panic! That's a good name for a ska band. That exists! That must be a ska band.
Mark:
Skatanic Panic, yeah. If you listen to any ska music backwards. Yeah.
Tom:
Yeah, yeah.
Mark:
Okay. Well, I mean, mmph. Technical knowledge of audio transmission (laughs) and broadcast.
Tom:
I mean, if anyone should get this, it's me then, but I don't know.
Mithuna:
So it sounds like you've already got this, but basically the issue is with the being able to play it on the radio part, not with the song itself. So they could play it live, no problem.
Jay:
So something about the radio. Here's a question. This was 1979. Is it still true now? Would you still have trouble playing it on a radio today?
Mithuna:
Yeah, great question. No, I think there would be no problems with playing it today.
Tom:
Okay.
Jay:
But how soon after 1979 did that get fixed? Because radio technology on good old FM is about the same now, isn't it?
Tom:
Well, partly. The feed into the radio is different.
Like back then it would've been a vinyl player and a load of analogue circuitry to hook it up. It would've been like real time, live. Everything would've just been, you put the needle on the record, the world is hearing that. There's no signal delay. There might not even be much in terms of compression or anything like that.
Was it too loud? Would it have blown people's speakers?
Jay:
Did they have a sort of piccolo playing in the background that went: (imitates BBC pips)
SFX:
(Tom and Mithuna snicker)
Jay:
Which would've made people think, "Ah, it must be four o'clock. Time for the news."
Mithuna:
(laughs)
Tom:
Good piccolo. Good very specific niche British radio reference and a piccolo.
Jay:
I know your listeners.
SFX:
(group giggling)
Tom:
Each of them, individually, personally.
Jay:
(giggles)
Mithuna:
(snickers) So none of those specific technical issues, but a related one, I would say. Not related to the piccolo. That one was way off base, but... the loudness issue maybe is sort of similar.
Jay:
Did it include a fake news broadcast, where it said— halfway through the song, it says, "It's three o'clock and time for the news and weather with your—" And people might listen to that song and think that it really was the news?
Tom:
That is actually illegal in the UK— Well, against the Broadcasting Code in the UK. You can't do a fake news broadcast.
You also can't play out—
Jay:
The song "London Loves" by Blur on the album Park Life contains a traffic report.
Tom:
Ah?
Jay:
And in theory, somebody out there can pinpoint exactly when that traffic report was from, based on how bad the traffic was.
Tom:
And someone will have done.
Like someone bothered to find out the one possible day when Ice Cube's good day was in "Today Was a Good Day" by just every single lyric in there. There is one possible day in LA where there was no smog and everything else lined up.
Jay:
I can't resist a Beatles story.
You know, in the Beatles song, "I Am the Walrus", there's a bit at the end where they're tuning through the radio, and they tune into a little bit of King Lear.
I went to watch King Lear, and it's very long, and I found myself sort of falling asleep until the unmistakable, the end of "I Am the Walrus" started playing in the theatre.
SFX:
(Tom and Mithuna laugh)
Jay:
"What's going on?"
SFX:
(Mark and Mithuna giggle)
Mark:
So is it— 'cause you said it was maybe similar to— it was— we're on the right— along the right lines with the sound being too high. And I know nothing about this kind of thing, and sound and this technical stuff. But is it to do with...
Can it be to do with the number of layers of sound, almost the number of instruments that were in it, and whether there's just too much going— I don't really understand how complex sound travels down a wire. To me, that is just mind blowing. Let alone Wi-Fi.
I just— How do you get multiple sounds at the same time, just being electrons? Nobody here needs to answer this now, 'cause I know you've all got long answers to it. Right. I'm just telling you, it blows my mind!
Tom:
Back then it would've been a needle on a record. That would've converted to an electrical impulse. That would've gone into the radio systems. But the checks and balances on... not blowing up people's radios... that was a thing that was theoretically possible. Like you could transmit too loud a signal, too high a signal through the air and cause listeners problems, or cause the radio equipment problems.
Jay:
Well, if it was too loud... would it force the needle to start jumping all over the place if it was too loud?
Mithuna:
(nods silently)
Jay:
And the song was far too loud and bassy, and the needle would jump all about the place like a flea?
Mithuna:
Yeah.
Tom:
Because it's ska! Because it's got a load of really loud drum kicks and brass in there. And it—
Jay:
Hence, fan of ska.
SFX:
(Tom and Mithuna laugh)
Mithuna:
Yeah, that's exactly it. So, they had to re-record the record because there was too much bass in it. It was too loud. It was causing a lot of skipping.
Tom:
Wow!
Mark:
Did they use piccolo instead of the brass?
SFX:
(Tom and Jay laugh)
Mithuna:
I think they did actually.
Mark:
I think they were onto it.
Mithuna:
I think you might be right actually. 'Cause they apparently had to re-record it so it had more high-frequency sounds in it. So maybe it's a piccolo.
Mark:
Flutes.
Tom:
Incredible.
Mithuna:
(giggles) Exactly.
Tom:
Thank you to Daniel Peake for this question.
In 2007, the UK's National Lottery released its 'Cool Cash' scratchcard. Less than a week later, it had to be withdrawn. Why?
I'll say that again.
In November 2007, the UK's National Lottery released its 'Cool Cash' scratchcard. Less than a week later, it had to be withdrawn. Why?
Mark:
Were they all winners accidentally?
SFX:
(guests chuckling)
Mark:
That would be absolutely insane.
Tom:
It would be slightly too much, but I'm not gonna say that's completely wrong.
Mithuna:
Oh?
Jay:
Too many people were winning on a technicality, where it's something like, you need to find three red blobs, and they found a smear of red ink down the side that they didn't manage to cover in their own small print?
Mark:
Oh, yeah. Maybe there's a way of hacking it. Yes. Like if you held it up to an incredibly powerful light.
Tom:
It wasn't a production error. The scratchcards worked as normal.
Mithuna:
Okay, but was it a maths error, where they'd miscalculated the probability of winning? And so it was too likely to win, and then, you know, it wasn't worth it for them?
Tom:
You are all zoning in very quickly. Mithuna, maths error. Definitely go in on that.
Mithuna:
Okay.
Tom:
The cards weren't all winners... but perhaps people thought they might be.
Mark:
Was it not clear then? So because you know, the sort of the rules of— I dunno what this card looked like, but usually with these things, you have to match things or get rows of things.
Tom:
(nods silently)
Mark:
And if there was a clarification error in what you needed to get on the card. So you had a lot of people calling in, saying, "I've...", you know, like, "Yeah, look, I've got a 2,000."
Tom:
Yep.
Mark:
And all the rest of it. And then actually they had to clarify that what had been written in the Ts & Cs on the back didn't mean what a lot of people had assumed it to be. So it's almost like a legal... Well, no, you said it was a maths error.
Tom:
It's a maths error, but Mark, you're definitely along the right lines.
Jay:
So it's not that too many people were winning. It's that too many people thought they were winning and were jamming at the phone lines.
Tom:
Yes.
Mark:
Was it, hmm... Was it not clear that it was pounds, not pence?
SFX:
(group laughing)
Tom:
Oh!
Mark:
It's like, "Oh, no, no, no. You've won one pound, not 100 pounds. Sorry."
SFX:
(guests laughing)
Tom:
The retailers who were selling it were getting people coming back and going, "I've won." And they'd scan it, and, "No, no, you haven't won here." But people thought they had, and they looked, they go, "Oh yeah, no, I've won there."
Jay:
Due to a maths error?
Tom:
The scratchcard is called 'Cool Cash'.
Jay:
It's not some sort of heat-sensitive thing, is it?
Mark:
(snickers)
Jay:
You know, do you remember those T-shirts in the '90s that change colour?
Mithuna:
Yeah.
Jay:
Is it a sort of thing where you have to scratch off three bells, but it also, if you rub it with your thumb, will it turn orange, or won't it? Or have I invented something cool just now?
Tom:
You have actually invented something cool just now, yes.
Jay:
As in that's not the right answer.
Tom:
(laughs) That's not the right answer, no, but—
Mark:
So is it not actually cash that they were— Cool Cash was like a... (laughs) No, I dunno where I'm going with this.
Tom:
They all have different themes. Like there might be a treasure chest you have to scratch, but it is just like: scratch off, see if you've won.
Mithuna:
So just for clarification, are we saying that this was just one box that they had to scratch, and then it said you won or you didn't win? Or is it like several boxes, and you have to get a row or something?
Tom:
It's several boxes, and... you have to... look at a thing on each line to know if you've won.
Jay:
You have to look at a thing.
Tom:
Mm, on a scratchcard called 'Cool Cash'.
Mark:
Often it's a set of images, isn't it? So you've got to join up three icicles or whatever.
Jay:
(makes stiff-faced finger gestures)
Mark:
Jay's making his face.
Tom:
Jay's making his face.
Mark:
Stop talking.
Tom:
The last two times—
Mark:
Then he says something absolutely wild.
Tom:
And then I say no!
Mark:
Then you say no, and then everyone forgets where they were.
Jay:
Usually means I've got a wrong answer coming, but... Is there something to do with the 'oo' in the middle of 'Cool' looking like a couple of zeroes?
Tom:
No, sorry, Jay. The pattern holds.
SFX:
(group laughing)
Mark:
But it's like a snowflake or a— There's something about the symbol, is interrupting what people thought about it.
Tom:
It's not the symbol. Couple of zeroes isn't quite right, Jay, but like maths error.
Mark:
So is there snow falling, and people thought there was a decimal point, or...
Tom:
Now we're getting closer.
Jay:
Oh?
Mark:
Oh, there's— okay, so there's something in it. Yeah. Snow, ice cubes, snowmen.
Mithuna:
Was it some sort of like, you just have to look at this thing, and then you know whether you've won, or do you have to add up something, or, you know, read out a number?
Tom:
You do have to read out a number, yes.
Mithuna:
Okay, okay. And so maybe that was something to do with that.
Tom:
And again, 'Cool'. I keep emphasising the name is 'Cool'—
Mark:
Oh, degrees C. Is it a degrees C thing?
Tom:
Yes it is, yes.
Mithuna:
Ahhh.
Tom:
Now...
Jay:
Oh! So the number— the correct thing is supposed to be to do with how hot something is, and people are getting muddled up to do with Fahrenheit or zero degrees or something like that.
Tom:
You are so close. You are so close. You're right. They had to scratch off different temperatures. There is a temperature.
Mark:
Ahhh.
Jay:
Ahhh.
Tom:
And you had to compare that temperature to the other temperatures to see which prizes you'd won.
Mark:
(giggles)
Jay:
Oh!
Mark:
Okay.
Tom:
So what's the maths error?
Mithuna:
Oh, is it because it was a negative sign? Like they had to figure out—
Tom:
(softly) Yes!
Mithuna:
(laughs)
Jay:
Ohhh!
Mithuna:
That's so funny.
Tom:
Talk us through it, Mithuna.
Mithuna:
Okay, so what I'm thinking is like, you know, you have to compare two temperatures. One of them is negative, and people couldn't tell if that was the colder one or the hotter one.
Tom:
Yes.
Players had to scratch off a panel revealing today's temperature. And if any of their prize panels were lower than that temperature, then they'd won. But players thought that -3 was lower than -5. Because the number is lower, and it's a little bit ambiguous.
And the lottery operator, after about a week, just went, "We are scrapping these entire run of scratchcards. We're just calling the whole thing off."
Jay:
What they should have done was relaunch the whole thing, but in Kelvin.
Tom:
(laughs uproariously)
SFX:
(guests crack up)
Mithuna:
Yeah, exactly, right. That's the sensible thing to do.
Mark:
That'll help clear it up for the public immediately.
SFX:
(both laugh)
Mark:
Yeah.
Tom:
Mark, it's over to you. Whenever you're ready.
Mark:
This question has been sent in by ChaoticNeutralCzech.
On some pieces of military equipment, the top row of the keyboard reads: 1–2–N–4–5. Why?
On some pieces of military equipment, the top row of the keyboard reads: 1–2–N for November–4–5. Why?
Jay:
Because... they've got 'N' instead of '3'.
SFX:
(Tom and Mithuna laugh)
Tom:
I was sure—
Mark:
Jay, you've cracked it, and we can all go home.
Tom:
I was sure this was gonna be something like 1-2-3-4-N, because 'five' sounds like 'fire', and it's skipped in some military countdowns just for that reason. But apparently not.
Mark:
Can I actually just say it, the other day, my wife was saying something to me phonetically. And when she got to an N, she said— Sorry, when she got to an M, she said "M for 'Movember'."
SFX:
(group laughing)
Mark:
She genuinely did that. The worst use of the phonetic alphabet or attempted phonetic alphabet I've ever heard.
Tom:
There is something out there I think called the Devil's Phonetic Alphabet, which includes things like P for psychology.
Mark:
Yeah, well this would fit perfectly in the Devil's— Anyway. So, 1–2–N–4–5 on some pieces of military equipment. Why?
Jay:
So they either need the '3' not to be there 'cause that's too convenient, or the 'N', they need Ns all over the place.
Tom:
Okay, military equipment. We've gotta figure this out. So, guns and... planes and... What other military equipment is there?
Mithuna:
Is it like a key that you use to open something? Is it a keypad?
Mark:
It's not opening, no.
Mithuna:
Okay.
Jay:
Does the key that's supposed to have a '3' on it, that has an 'N' instead, is the '3' still there with the shift key? Like where have they put the '3'? Is the '3' missing entirely?
Mark:
So I don't have the answer to that. One suspects that they... Well, I'm just suspecting that there might've been a '3' over on the other... you know, sometimes you get a second number pad.
Tom:
Could we roll off some military equipment here? What's gonna have keys for that?
Jay:
Submarine, missile launchers, very hot cannonballs.
Mithuna:
Maybe something where you have a... you have to put in a key to launch something, like, you know, nuclear codes, that sort of thing.
Jay:
Well, like playing a game of Battleships, where you have to put the coordinates in?
Mithuna:
Maybe, or, yeah.
Mark:
I'll give you a first clue now, which is: there was another 'N' in the usual place. It's not a huge clue, but... I'm just saying it's not that they have decided this is the best and only place for an 'N', but the rest of the keyboard is normal.
Jay:
Is it because you need to be able to type "NNNNNNNNNNN" really quickly with two fingers, one on each hand, so you need more than one?
Tom:
(laughs)
Mark:
I love that that would be a military strategy that would achieve something. (laughs) Quick, type 'N' as quickly as you can, or we will lose!
Jay:
Well, 'cause I'm like, you know, it might be a text conversation. "Should we launch the missiles?" "Nnnnno!"
SFX:
(guests laughing)
Mark:
Just type "no", Jay, in that situation, please.
Mithuna:
So when you said that there are two Ns, does that mean that even when you pressed the 'N' that should be... well, is where the '3' should be, you would still get an 'N' as an output, or would you get a '3' as an output?
Mark:
The assumption is that you would get an 'N' as an output. Yeah.
Mithuna:
Interesting.
Tom:
Okay.
Mark:
And it doesn't really help to have had two though. It's not, like you were suggesting Jay, you don't need two. Yeah.
Jay:
If I know this podcast, there is more at play than just the 'N'. There's probably something else awry about this keyboard. Can you tell me, is there—
Mark:
Well, the letters below that N are— They're in the standard QWERTY layout.
Jay:
And the rest of the numbers?
Mark:
Normal.
Jay:
Why, why— Okay, well, let's think why you might use the letter 'N' other than to type "no" very loudly.
Mark:
That's what you need to think about. That's the right question, yeah.
Jay:
Why might you want the letter 'N'?
Mark:
Mhm.
Jay:
And not the letter Y.
Tom:
And not the letter three. The number three.
Jay:
Yeah, of all the places they could've put the extra 'N', they've sacrificed '3'.
Mark:
Yeah, and there is obviously a reason why they've put it there, but that there is no benefit in the sacrificing of the '3'.
Jay:
Is it because... have they put it there for safety, to stop you doing something that you might otherwise unthinkingly do with a normal keyboard? Is anyone else looking down at their keyboard for inspiration?
Tom:
Yes, yes.
Jay:
Well, 'cause what else is— I'm looking at the other symbols on the '3'.
Mithuna:
Yeah.
Jay:
I've got a pound sign on mine. I don't think that's gonna be much good in the military.
Tom:
It's gonna be W, E, and R are gonna be near it, but... North, west, east, south!
Jay:
Oh!
Mithuna:
Oh!
Tom:
I looked down at my keyboard. There's a 'W' and an 'E' below it, and an 'S' below that.
Mithuna:
Oh.
Jay:
Oh, of course!
Mark:
That's correct.
Tom:
North, west, east, south.
Mark:
This is used on navigational equipment within the military, and it allows the keyboard, the QWERTY keyboard, by replacing that '3' with an 'N' to be used as a compass rose. Because you've got the 'N', and just below that, you have the 'W' and the 'E' next to that. And just below the 'W', you have the 'S'.
So you can essentially use your military vehicle, which is usually using military vehicles in a sort of... game-like way almost, just having one hand hovering over that.
And yes, if you then need a three, you're probably in trouble. You really have to think. So hopefully threes never come up at war.
Tom:
Thank to Jesse Steele for sending in the question I asked right at the start of the show.
In East Africa, why is a motorcycle taxi called a 'boda boda'?
Does anyone wanna have a quick shot at that before I tell the audience?
Mark:
Is it Kiswahili? Is 'boda' Kiswahili for 'wheel'?
Tom:
Oh, no, no.
Jay:
Does it go (imitates engine sputter)
Tom:
(laughs)
Mark:
Well, that was my other thought, but...
Tom:
Well, it is something that sounds like. It's not onomatopoeic, but it sounds like something.
Jay:
Is it when it bumps along the road? "Bo-da, bo-da, bo-da".
Tom:
Ah, it's not onomatopoeic.
Jay:
Oh, it's not? I just wanted to make silly noises.
Mark:
Did you say two-person motorcycle? You did—
Tom:
A motorcycle taxi.
Mark:
Motorcycle taxi. Exactly, okay.
Tom:
This is to do with international transport.
Jay:
Boda boda.
Mark:
Border.
Tom:
Keep going.
Jay:
Oh!
Mark:
Border border. So they go across the border to and fro.
Tom:
It gets you from border to border.
Mark:
Border to border.
Tom:
Absolutely right. Where can people find you? What's going on in your lives? We will start with Mithuna.
Mithuna:
You can find me at Looking Glass Universe on YouTube.
Tom:
Mark.
Mark:
Well, Jay and I are... just working on some more Map Mens, and we've got a book that's just coming out, called This Way Up: Where Maps Go Wrong and Why it Matters.
Tom:
And Jay.
Jay:
Like Mark said, we've got more episodes of Map Men on our YouTube channel. Search for Map Men.
And you can also buy our book called This Way Up: When Maps Go Wrong, which is like Map Men in book form.
Tom:
And if you wanna know more about this show, you can do that at lateralcast.com, where you can also send in your own ideas for questions. We are at @lateralcast basically everywhere, and there are full video episodes every week on Spotify.
Thank you very much to Jay Foreman.
Jay:
Thank you very much.
Tom:
Mark Cooper-Jones.
Mark:
Thank you.
Tom:
Mithuna Yoganathan.
Mithuna:
Thank you.
Tom:
I've been Tom Scott, and that's been Lateral.
Episode Credits
| HOST | Tom Scott |
| QUESTION PRODUCER | David Bodycombe |
| EDITED BY | Julie Hassett at The Podcast Studios, Dublin |
| MUSIC | Karl-Ola Kjellholm ('Private Detective'/'Agrumes', courtesy of epidemicsound.com) |
| ADDITIONAL QUESTIONS | Ólafur Waage, Josh O., ChaoticNeutralCzech, Jesse Steele, Rudy Loethen, Daniel Peake |
| FORMAT | Pad 26 Limited/Labyrinth Games Ltd |
| EXECUTIVE PRODUCERS | David Bodycombe and Tom Scott |