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Episode 165: Donut security
5th December, 2025 • Jack Chambers, Manu Henriot and Alex Bell from QI's 'Lunchbox Envy' face questions about dietary dials, spun signage and Twitch take-outs.
Transcription by Caption+
Tom:
Where in Spain can you find a dial that can be turned to tomato, wine, or olive oil? The answer to that at the end of the show. My name's Tom Scott, and this is Lateral. To find the correct path, you must pick the correct door. One door's guard always tells the truth. The other door's guard always lies. And the third guard wonders why he doesn't have a door.
SFX:
(guests chuckling)
Tom:
And the fact that our three guests are here means they have chosen the wrong door. Welcome to Lateral. We're here for the next 40 minutes or so. Can't win 'em all. We have the folks from Lunchbox Envy, the podcast. Welcome back to the show, everybody!
Alex:
Hey.
Jack:
Hi, thank you.
Manu:
Hey.
Tom:
So hoping they don't take any more wrong turns, first of all: Manu Henriot, welcome back.
Manu:
Hello, thanks for having us.
Tom:
You should explain Lunchbox Envy.
Manu:
So, it's a podcast where we look at the weird and wonderful stories behind our, like, the things we eat every day. so it's me and my fellow QI Elf, Jack Chambers, and our lovely friend Rosie MacKean, who's a chef and food writer. It's all brought together by our lovely producer, Alex. And, yeah, it's so much fun, and we eat so well every time we record.
SFX:
(Alex and Jack chuckle)
Tom:
And thank you for introducing the other players today as well. (laughs)
Manu:
Oh.
SFX:
(guests laughing)
Tom:
Jack Chambers, welcome back to the show.
Jack:
Thank you very much. It's lovely to be here. I was obviously impressed enough to come back.
Tom:
We have, I think, assembled some food-related questions again for the second time.
Jack:
Fantastic.
Tom:
Some of them are very tentative. But there should be some links in there. I dunno if that's gonna give you an advantage or not, but I suspect on food facts, you are... the people to go to.
Jack:
Yeah, I think so. As Manu said, we discuss the things that we eat every day, but also some of the things that we've, you know, people rarely eat, in fact. And so— often for good reason. There's some disgusting things we bring up. But no, the steaks are high. Given that it's our specialist subject.
Tom:
Ohh!
Alex:
Eyyy! (laughs)
Manu:
Ohhh!
Tom:
And the last member of our trio today, we have the show's producer, Alex Bell. Welcome back.
Alex:
Hi, Tom. It's good to be back after such a long time. Was it five minutes since we recorded the last episode, or are we not—
Tom:
Don't spoil the magic! Don't spoil the magic—
Alex:
(laughs)
Tom:
Despite the fact that we're all wearing the same clothes and in the exact same locations with the same haircuts. Like, yes, welcome back. I should ask what you are working on, researching, producing right now, because it's gonna be months 'til this episode comes out. What is Lunchbox Envy coming out with soon?
Alex:
Well, we actually— We— I was just looking into apples. We've been doing apple research, and I actually went all the way to... the tree that Newton saw an apple fall from and was inspired to come up with his theory of gravity. And that's an amazing tree. I actually can't remember the name of the house where it is now, but it's...
Jack:
It's in Lincolnshire, right?
Alex:
It is, and it's this fantastically very, very old, but very, very healthy apple tree, which still fruits loads of apples. And you can go there and visit, and they give you apples, and you can make apple crumble, which is what I am doing. (chuckles)
Tom:
Am I right in saying they send cuttings from that all over the world?
Alex:
Yes.
Tom:
I'm sure I've seen Newton's tree somewhere else also.
Alex:
All over the place. Yes, there's— They've got one in Cambridge at his college. They've got ones in all sorts of other famous like apple institutes. They love a Newton tree. They sent it into space as well, actually. A little bit of bark. I think they sent an apple into space. Yeah, they've really got their money's worth from that one.
SFX:
(guys chuckling)
Tom:
Well, good luck on the show today to all three of you. Unlike our door guard, I won't lie to you. It's time to get on with the show and accept the truth that is question one. Thank you to Phil Thompson for this question. Who might be forced to turn around because they've left their tacho at home? I'll say that again. Who might be forced to turn around because they've left their tacho at home?
Alex:
I mean, I would.
SFX:
(group laughing)
Alex:
There's no real choice in it.
Jack:
Is tacho... Is it gonna be an acronym or initialism? Yeah.
Alex:
Oh, that's a good idea. I was just thinking that. Taco does sound like an acronym, doesn't it?
Jack:
I mean, the only one I know is quite political. It's "Trump always chickens out". But you know what I mean, yeah. What could a taco be? We did the cube rule on the sandwiches episode and a taco is... the sort of structural starch of any food can be defined in different ways.
Tom:
Sorry, the cube rule?
Alex:
This is Jack's bonkers theory that he found on the internet.
Jack:
(cackles gleefully)
Tom:
(laughs) Okay.
Alex:
Absolutely ridiculous.
Jack:
So the cube rule, you basically define... It started... I mean, you'll have to listen to the episode to get the full story, but it's basically about the structure of food and where the structural starch is according to the faces of a cube. So if you've got structural starch on one of the faces of a cube, then it's toast, regardless.
Tom:
(cackles)
Jack:
Like cheesecake is toast. Pizza is toast.
Tom:
Right, okay.
Alex:
Then it goes all the way up to six. There's basically six types of food, and one of them is taco.
Tom:
Yeah, so a pierogi is type six, 'cause it's on all sides.
Jack:
It's a calzone.
Alex:
Calzone, in fact. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Tom:
Yeah.
Alex:
But taco is three, because it's three sides, right?
Jack:
Yeah. So if you have three sides connected, then that's the taco.
Alex:
Anyway, that's almost certainly got nothing to do with it.
Jack:
Yeah. (laughs)
Tom:
Yeah, you're absolutely right. It's nothing to do with it.
Manu:
Is it something to do with a business? In my head, it's like serious. His livelihood depends on this taco. If you're returning home for your taco.
Tom:
Yes. Forced to turn around is right, there.
Jack:
Forced to.
Alex:
Is it literally forced to turn around? Like it's like something that stops your steering wheel from working?
Tom:
(hesitates)
Alex:
Like...
Jack:
Ooh.
Manu:
Ooh.
Tom:
Ehh, yes? I mean, I'm not sure if it actually immobilises it, but—
Jack:
Is it law enforcement? Or is it physics?
SFX:
(guys laughing)
Jack:
This is a game show there. Is it law enforcement, or is it physics?
Tom:
You're right, that 'forced' has several different levels there. This is law enforcement.
Jack:
Okay.
Alex:
So if you don't have a taco, you have to physically turn around.
Jack:
So is there some sort of safety device attached to a steering wheel known as a taco?
Tom:
Steering wheel is outta nowhere.
Jack:
Oh, okay.
Tom:
That is correct.
Alex:
You do get those ones where you can lock the steering wheel. But we don't necessarily know it's a car as well. It might be a different type of vehicle.
Jack:
Ooh.
Tom:
Oh, you keep hitting things.
Jack:
Ha-ha!
Alex:
(laughs)
Jack:
Is it a helicopter?
Alex:
I'm getting the hang of this game.
Jack:
Or luge.
Alex:
(laughs) Helicopter.
Tom:
(laughs) "A luuuge."
Manu:
"The luuuge."
SFX:
(laughter trails off)
Alex:
What has a steering wheel that isn't a car?
Jack:
Well, it could just be a lorry or something.
Tom:
It could.
Jack:
Could.
Tom:
Absolutely right, yes.
Jack:
Ooh.
Tom:
So you're right. A truck driver would be forced to turn around if they left their tacho at home. And it is a legal requirement, and it is... something to do with steering wheel and everything like that. I don't quite know how to kick this home, because you've got the bits of the question
SFX:
(Jack and Alex chuckle)
Tom:
that were meant to be the slightly harder ones first.
Jack:
Oh, I see.
Alex:
Okay. So...
Jack:
Is this in America?
Tom:
No, Britain as well.
Alex:
Is it like, you know how you have big, furry dice?
Jack:
(laughs)
Alex:
And there's like, legally, you have to have a cheery little taco.
Manu:
There's a lot of culture around truck driving and ice, but that's not a legal thing. I think that's... yeah.
Jack:
Is it to do with having a rest?
Tom:
Yes, it is.
Jack:
Yeah. Okay, good.
Manu:
Oh.
Tom:
Yes.
Alex:
Oh?
Jack:
Oh, is it a neck pillow? Actually, no. That would encourage you to sleep while you're on the job, wouldn't it?
Alex:
On the wheel, yeah.
SFX:
(group laughing)
Tom:
What do you mean by having a rest? Go into that one for me.
Jack:
So, it's obviously quite dangerous if you're driving an enormous lorry, tired.
Tom:
Mhm.
Jack:
Because you could fall asleep at the wheel and then crash. So... Is it like Mr. Bean? He's got like the toothpicks in his eyes, to stay awake?
SFX:
(group laughing)
Tom:
Well, no, 'cause that wouldn't be legal.
Jack:
Yes, that's true.
Tom:
You can't legally drive a lorry tired.
Alex:
Is it something that actually measures how long a lorry driver has been driving for?
Tom:
Yes, it is the tachograph.
Jack:
Ah!
Alex:
Oh!
Manu:
Oh!
Tom:
This is the tachograph. It records how long and how fast a vehicle has been driven.
Jack:
Wow.
Manu:
Ah.
Tom:
These days, it is a credit card shaped thing that you plug in to the vehicle's digital log. But it used to be an actual piece of paper in a circle.
Alex:
A taco. It used to be made of tacos.
SFX:
(guests laughing)
Tom:
It would go behind the steering wheel, and as you accelerated and decelerated, a little bit of graphite, like in a pencil, would move up and down and act as a log of your speed and driving so that if you got into an accident, the police could look at the tacho, do forensics on it, and even work out things like the— how bad the crash was, what speed you were going at that moment.
Jack:
Wow, so it's like a black box.
Manu:
Yeah.
Tom:
Yeah.
Alex:
If it was really bad, the graphite would just write out "shiiiit".
SFX:
(group laughing)
Tom:
Yes, this is the tachograph, which is the now-digital record of driving hours, known as a tacho. Each of our guests has brought a question along with them. We will start with Jack.
Jack:
This question has been sent in by Peter Young. During World Expo 88 in Brisbane, Australia, the city council took out full-page newspaper adverts that implored residents not to fill their rubbish bins with mangoes. Why? And I'll read that again. During World Expo 88 in Brisbane, Australia, the city council took out full-page newspaper adverts that implored residents not to fill their rubbish bins with mangoes. Why?
Alex:
Wow.
Manu:
Ooh. What's happening at World Expo 88?
Jack:
So it— I'd looked into this. It was this— it was— you know about these sort of world's fairs that have just developed into expos. It's kind of a sort of welcome to the future. The theme was leisure time in a technological world or something.
Alex:
They basically always build a monorail. Like in the old days, it was like, you build a big structure out of glass, and then when monorails are invented, you build monorails. And that's what they really do.
Tom:
Oh yeah. Seattle monorail, world's fair.
Jack:
Yeah, yeah. And they, yeah, they did have a monorail. I dunno if it still exists. That's slightly—
Tom:
Space Needle, world's fair. Biosphere in Montreal, world's fair.
Alex:
World's fairs are amazing.
Tom:
The Sunsphere in Knoxville, Tennessee, I think, was just— It's a big building with a golden sphere on top.
Jack:
Sure, yeah.
Tom:
Yeah. There's a lot of stuff that just gets built for world's fairs.
Jack:
Anyway, nothing to do with mangoes, I'm afraid.
Tom:
Awh.
Manu:
Ugh.
Alex:
So is it— I feel like the two angles here are either they... residents were going to fill their bins unusually full of mangoes for whatever reason, and then the coun— the government are basically like, "Please don't do that 'cause it's a waste" or something, or... there are some man— like a normal amount of mangoes are going in the rubbish all the time, but it causes a problem. I'm thinking they want to clean up their city because they've got the world's fair, and you know, rats eat, but they really love mangoes. So they're like, "Can you just hold off on the mangoes for this week?" You know, when like Boris Johnson during our Olympics sprayed all of London streets with a sticky chemical that made the pollution stick to the roads instead of dealing with actual pollution solving.
Jack:
Really?
Alex:
He just was like, "Oh, just for the Olympics. We'll just stick the pollution to the ground." Yeah.
Manu:
Also, why don't we use that all the time if it's available?
SFX:
(guys laughing)
Manu:
Why do we save it for the Olympics? Oh, okay.
Tom:
World expos go on for a long time though.
Jack:
They do.
Tom:
As we record this, the one in Osaka is still happening, but that's like a months-long expo. National governments spend a lot of time and money building the pavilions. This goes on for months.
Jack:
Oh, a clue that might help you: The ads began appearing shortly after the event had started.
Tom:
What city was this again?
Jack:
Brisbane, in Australia.
Alex:
Was it reverse psychology? Did they want them to?
SFX:
(Jack and Manu laugh)
Jack:
Why would you want to do that?
Alex:
I don't know. (chuckles)
Jack:
Mangoes are naturally occurring around Brisbane.
Tom:
I was about to say, is some government just shipping in huge amounts of mangoes?
Jack:
(wheezes)
Alex:
That's good, yeah, that's—
Tom:
But no, no. Then they're natural there.
Alex:
I like that, yeah. So they're just on all the street trees and stuff?
Jack:
Until they started going in bins.
Alex:
Were they being collected and used for something else? Like they had some exotic animals in the... in there, and they were like, "Wait, we can feed them to the animals."
Jack:
(chuckles)
Alex:
But most people put 'em in the bins.
Manu:
There's also like a date. This is definitely not it, but there's a dating thing where people are putting pineapples in their shopping baskets, and there's pineapple mania.
Jack:
Yeah.
Manu:
The single people. I think it's in America, where it's like—
Alex:
Oh, like, yeah. Growing swingers. Like growing thing. If you're swingers, you grow stuff on your...
Manu:
Yeah.
Jack:
In your front garden, yeah.
Manu:
It's like, put a mango in the bin. Someone will comment.
Tom:
Well, I think I've been left outta something here, 'cause all three of you clearly know about this(!)
SFX:
(group laughing)
Jack:
No, and that's the wrong way to go.
Tom:
I dunno. I have boldly claimed on shows in the past... that, oh yeah, I know I've been somewhere, and I've never seen that, so it's not a real thing.
SFX:
(Jack and Alex crack up)
Tom:
But I've been to Brisbane a couple of times, and I can't remember there being a huge surfeit of mangoes being put into bins. But maybe I wasn't there in the right season.
Alex:
Well, are you looking in the bins though? 'Cause maybe—
Tom:
That's true. That's true.
Alex:
But maybe everyone— But that's the thing. Maybe there's a culture where people pick up the mangoes when they fall on the floor, and they put 'em in the bins. And it's just like a... quite a good thing, because people put away— I imagine the problem is that they're rotting, right? And they're going off and smelling. That must be where all the bins are going.
Jack:
But link it to the expo. 'Cause that would be happening all year round.
Manu:
So there's something at the expo, where they— they're going, and they're collecting loads of mangoes.
Jack:
Yeah.
Manu:
And then they're returning from the expo and putting them in the bin... but then they're rotting in the bins, and the council's like, "We can't handle this much rotting fruit."
Tom:
Or is it normal... for Brisbanites... I'm gonna with Brisbanites.
Manu:
Mhm.
Tom:
To put their mangoes in the bin because they have too many mangoes, and instead they're being asked to take them to the expo.
Jack:
No, it's not that. They don't normally have too many mangoes.
Tom:
Okay.
Alex:
So the mangoes are— And there are more mangoes about in circulation because of the world's fair?
Jack:
Correct.
Tom:
And Manu's right. They're bringing them home and then...
Alex:
Throwing them away. And are they putting whole mangoes in the bin, or are they eating them and putting the leftovers?
Jack:
I think they're whole mangoes. So another way in is to think... So the expo was a major event that the city celebrated, and... celebrations went on well into the night.
Manu:
Partying with mangoes. Mango party.
Tom:
That's Walking with Dinosaurs. Just much worse.
SFX:
(Manu and Jack laugh)
Jack:
"Partying with Mangoes", with Kenneth Branagh.
SFX:
(Jack and Manu crack up)
Jack:
No, so what sort of things happen when you celebrate? Not you specifically in your own home, but like...
SFX:
(Tom and Alex laugh)
Jack:
When a city is celebrating a global event...
Alex:
They make a mess. So you make a mess. There's lots of noise. A lot of street mess.
Jack:
Lots of noise.
Tom:
Hold— Hold it. Drunk koalas.
Jack:
(laughs heartily)
Tom:
Alright, let me put a thing forward.
Jack:
Okay.
Alex:
I wanna go to your parties, Tom.
Tom:
The mangoes go in the bin with a little bit of alcohol that's left over from something. They ferment.
Alex:
Yeah, nice.
Tom:
Like prison wine.
SFX:
(guests giggling)
Tom:
And the koalas are getting drunk on fermented mangoes and falling out the trees. I just fit a lot of Australian stereotypes in there. I'm really sorry, Australia.
SFX:
(Jack and Manu laugh)
Alex:
But the problem is, Tom, that sounds like an amazing time. So I don't know why anyone would want to stop that from happening.
Tom:
Yeah.
SFX:
(guests laughing)
Jack:
The waste collection services couldn't deal with the volume. But that's not, I mean, that's just a side effect of this quite interesting problem that they had.
Alex:
Did they plant loads of mango trees? More mango trees, because of the world's fair?
Jack:
That's a good point. So think local fauna.
Manu:
Oh?
Alex:
So these are animals that would eat mangoes.
Jack:
Correct.
Alex:
So rats or ants or...
Tom:
Birds.
Manu:
Yeah, birds.
Jack:
And what's the combination between a bird and a rat?
Manu:
Pigeon.
Alex:
A bat.
Jack:
A bat!
Manu:
Pigeon?
Alex:
Oh yeah.
SFX:
(group laughing)
Alex:
This is not the way we're supposed to work out the answer to this!
Tom:
I was thinking metaphorical. And then you're like, no, you just portmanteau the words. Just put them together.
Jack:
Well, in French, they're known as flying mice, I think, aren't they? "Souris volant", or something.
Alex:
Okay, so, the bats eat mangoes. They're sweet, aren't they? And bats like sweet things.
Jack:
Correct. And why would the bats not be doing their job?
Tom:
They're not eating the insects.
Jack:
Well, no, it's— Cut out the insects. They're not eating the mangoes.
Alex:
Oh, because the partying has scared them all off.
Jack:
Correct. So there were fireworks every night of the expo, which was scaring the local colonies of fruit bats. And they would normally eat the mangoes while they're small and green, destroy the crop. But they were so scared away, and around six months, that then the mangoes were able to ripen, fall into people's yards, and then they were binning them. And 'cause they're quite heavy fruit, they— the bins got too heavy to lift.
Manu:
Oh.
Jack:
And they— A mature tree can drop hundreds per week. But yeah, just the sheer volume of fireworks every night scared away the flying—
Tom:
That's why I didn't see the mangoes. The bats have eaten 'em!
Jack:
Exactly, yeah.
Alex:
You seen loads of bats flying around?
Tom:
Yes, actually.
Alex:
Really?
Tom:
It was a colony of flying foxes in Melbourne, but close enough.
Alex:
Wow. (chuckles)
Jack:
(laughs)
Manu:
Very nice.
Alex:
That's unbelievable. And also, I can't believe that that was their solution to the issue, rather than maybe we should stop scaring an entire population of bats away. Like it's screwing the ecology of the area. That's unbelievable.
Jack:
Yeah, yeah. That's a good fact.
Tom:
Thank you to Michael for this question. One weekend, some of the founders of Justin.tv – the forerunner of Twitch – were trying to get their website to work. Soon, they realised it was essential to call a pizza shop. Why? I'll say that again. One weekend, some of the founders of Justin.tv – the forerunner of Twitch – were trying to get their website to work. Soon, they realised it was essential to call a pizza shop. Why?
Manu:
I mean, I can't think straight when I'm hungry, so... my immediate thing is like, you need snacks when you're solving a hard problem.
Jack:
Could it be a specialist tool that only a pizza shop has? What would that be? Like a wood-fired oven or a paddle or a moped?
Alex:
All essential tools when you're launching an online platform.
Jack:
(giggles) Yeah. Maybe some chopped pineapple, controversial.
Tom:
(chuckles)
Alex:
Or somebody there, or somebody who worked there... knew— had the solution to their problem. 'Cause I'm thinking... We did this in the pizza episode. The pizza was always at the forefront of technology and the internet and online, right?
Jack:
Oh yeah!
Alex:
The first ever food ordered online was a pizza. The first tracker, use of GPS to track domestic stuff for civilians was with Domino's, I think. So like it— maybe they tested something by ordering a pizza, and then they had to ring 'em up to check that that's what actually happened or something like that.
Jack:
And then there was that one guy, we had so many emails from listeners to say "you didn't mention this fact," but it was mentioned on QI, I think, which is why we ignored it. But someone in sort of 2009 paid something like 50 Bitcoin for a single pizza back when Bitcoin was worth a fraction of a dollar. And you know, so extrapolating, that's, you know, the most expensive pizza ever made. Anyway, we're off on a bit of a tangent I think.
Tom:
You have hit a couple of things though.
Jack:
Well, yeah. It's a scatter gun approach.
SFX:
(group laughing)
Alex:
Yeah, yeah. If we talk about enough things, one of them's gonna be right.
Tom:
You're right that delivery was an important part there. Jack, you mentioned the moped. Yeah, that sort of thing.
Jack:
Yeah. Okay. Oh, were they... Okay, so I'm trying to think of the era here. So, if it's a precursor to Twitch, it's gonna be... I don't know, 2010? Maybe Twitch is older than I think.
Tom:
Around then.
Jack:
Sure, so like... midway through the internet's history so far.
Tom:
Yeah.
Alex:
And online and delivering and tracking is well in full flow.
Tom:
Oh yeah.
Alex:
So it's not— yeah, yeah.
Jack:
Is it something to do with a GoPro?
Alex:
Manu, you're dressed like you work at PizzaExpress right now.
Tom:
Oh!
SFX:
(Alex and Jack laugh)
Manu:
Wow, Alex!
Alex:
Any ideas? What? That's a compliment. They're very well dressed at PizzaExpress.
Manu:
Is it? I mean, their durables are amazing. I'll take that. (sighs) Has to do with some— something to do with like speed, of tracking an order and...
Jack:
What would they— Were they— Hmm. Were they developers, or were they sort of front of camera?
Tom:
Oh, developers.
Jack:
Okay.
Tom:
Justin.tv was originally just a livestream yourself site.
Jack:
So, veering away from the video game angle.
Tom:
Mhm.
Alex:
There's also that just— This is just the other thing that reminds me. The first ever webcam was set up
Jack:
Oh yeah.
Alex:
to monitor a coffee machine so that people could see when the coffee machine was empty. It's unbelievably lazy.
SFX:
(Jack and Tom laugh)
Alex:
Is it something like that? Is there— were they li— Is it like Liz Truss and the lettuce? They had a pizza decomposing?
SFX:
(others laughing)
Alex:
That was their first Twitch?
Jack:
Oh, maybe it was just sort of calibrate something so that... you could tell if there was lag on the system. If the doorbell went...
Alex:
That's so convoluted though! (laughs)
Jack:
(giggles profusely) No, this is... I know. This is an insight to where my brain goes.
Tom:
The pizza shop was in Tahoe, on the California–Nevada border.
Jack:
Oh, it's to do with time zones.
Tom:
D'oh, no. (stammer-laughs) I'll just head you off at the pass there, having dealt with them before.
SFX:
(Jack and Alex laugh)
Tom:
It's not time zones!
Alex:
Was it— Were they ringing the pizza place? It was specifically to do with pizza and tracking. It wasn't just that they picked a pizza place because of its location, say, but it could have been the shop next door.
Tom:
I hate to say this, but neither of those answers. It's not about tracking the pizza.
Alex:
Okay.
Tom:
But it would have to be a pizza shop.
Alex:
But you can ring a pizza shop because it's open late at night as well. So maybe it was the middle of the night. So it was one of the only things that was open back then.
Tom:
Yep. It was also on the weekend.
Alex:
Maybe they had a special offer on?
SFX:
(Tom and Jack laugh)
Jack:
Is it something to do with the jurisdiction between Nevada and California?
Alex:
Were they running a competition? And the whole point is that it's live video, and that people— they could get pizza, prove that they were live by getting a pizza ordered to someone?
Tom:
They didn't actually order any pizza.
Alex:
But it's something about the live, it's something about the being live, right? Because if the whole thing is about streaming live video? No, okay.
Tom:
Not really, no, no. They were trying to get the website to work, remember.
Jack:
Oh, I see, yeah.
Alex:
Why? What wasn't working about the website?
Tom:
Basically everything.
Jack:
(laughs)
Alex:
Okay.
Jack:
Oh, is there a rival faction that— Oh no, sorry. (chuckles) Again, I dunno where my brain is, thinking there's some sort of mutiny amongst the developers that's like...
Tom:
Not quite, but you're starting to think in the right lines here.
Jack:
Yeah, so some of them, were they the ones who were working late?
Tom:
Mm.
Alex:
Did one of them have a second job working at the pizzeria? Pizza place?
Tom:
What do you know about Tahoe?
Jack:
There's a lake.
Tom:
Mhm.
Alex:
And a pizza place.
Tom:
Yes, yes.
SFX:
(guests laughing)
Tom:
Quite a lot of other stuff there as well.
Jack:
Large swathes of The Godfather II is set there, I think.
Tom:
Oh, okay.
Jack:
(laughs) But I don't think that helps. Is it something... Is it at one end of Silicon Valley?
Tom:
No, it's a really well known vacation spot.
Jack:
Oh, for divorces.
Tom:
(blurts laugh) Sorry, what?
SFX:
(guests laughing)
Jack:
Well, that's Nevada generally. I think it had, in the mid-20th century, had much more liberal divorce.
Tom:
Okay.
Alex:
Oh, it's like the opposite of Gretna Green.
Jack:
Yeah, basically, yeah. But you've already said it's not to do with the jurisdiction. The Tahoe itself. Is it due to geography? Is it on a plateau or something?
Tom:
No, no. Vacation spot's important.
Jack:
Vacation spot.
Manu:
Mm.
Tom:
So, I'm just gonna picture the scene for you.
Jack:
Yeah, yeah.
Tom:
Some of the founders can't get the website to work. They call a pizza shop in vacation town of Tahoe. What might that shop be able to do for them that they can't do themselves?
Alex:
Maybe contact people in some way. If they're really popular.
Jack:
Yeah. They're holiday makers.
Alex:
It's— yeah, there's a specific day. And they could write something on every pizza and be like, visit the website or something.
Manu:
Or is there a colleague of theirs that's having pizza at the shop, and they're like...
Tom:
He's not having it at the shop. He's not having pizza at all.
Alex:
Oh, he is having it at home. They dunno where he is, but they know he's gonna order pizza. So they're like every pizza that goes out.
Tom:
Alex, I need you to kind of completely invert... that what you just said.
Alex:
(chuckles) Okay.
Jack:
They want to lose a colleague.
SFX:
(group laughs heartily)
Tom:
You said they don't know where he is. But they know he's having pizza.
Alex:
They know where he is, but they don't know what pizza he's having.
Tom:
They do know where he is.
Jack:
He's— Oh, he's on holiday. They need to send him a message.
Tom:
Yep.
Jack:
And 'cause he is on holiday, his out-of-office is on.
Tom:
Yep.
Jack:
He's not checking his emails. So they need to send him a pizza with a customised gift delivery note.
Tom:
Yes.
Manu:
Ah!
Tom:
Yeah. One of the co-founders, Kyle Vogt, had taken a rare vacation, leaving the others to look after the site. It had broken, they couldn't fix it, and they couldn't get him on the phone.
Jack:
Oh, wow.
Tom:
But they knew where he was.
Jack:
(giggles) Yeah.
Alex:
Jesus, talk about work-life boundaries. Like, leave me alone!
Tom:
Yeah! So they rang a pizza shop nearby. They didn't order a pizza. They just sent them some money and asked them to courier a message to him.
Alex:
Ah, this is pre-GDPR, I'm assuming.
SFX:
(guys laughing)
Manu:
Mad.
Jack:
It's like that... guy who broke up with his girlfriend, and then she blocked him on every single con— on, you know, social media, his number. And then he just bank transferred a penny, saying, "Please call."
SFX:
(guys laugh pityingly)
Jack:
As the reference.@7
Tom:
Manu, whenever you're ready, it's your question.
Manu:
Okay. This question has been sent in by anonymous. One morning, Sarah was required to bring in donuts for her coworkers, in the name of corporate security. Why? So: One morning, Sarah was required to bring in donuts for her coworkers, in the name of corporate security. Why?
Alex:
I have something completely random. This has popped into my head, but, there's a thing with internet companies that deal in cybersecurity, and they often have to generate a lot of random numbers in code. And it's very, very hard for computers to generate random numbers in code, because they're computers. And so often a method of doing that is to take something that's truly random in the real world, and like say, for example, film it. So there's a company that does cybersecurity that famously has a whole wall full of lava lamps with a camera pointing at it. And then the specific, obviously completely random and unpredictable movements of the lava lamps are interpreted down into some numbers, and that creates random codes.
Tom:
How much of that actually goes into their randomness is up for debate, but yes.
Jack:
Ohhh.
Alex:
Exactly.
Tom:
Certainly the publicity stunt is very good.
Alex:
Absolutely, yeah. And I wonder whether... or ordering a dozen random donuts from Krispy Kreme is a key part of their business model.
SFX:
(group laughing)
Manu:
Ehhh... No. It is...
SFX:
(group laughing)
Manu:
I love it. I love it.
Tom:
There's a thing called pentesting, penetration testing, which is, can you get past the security?
Jack:
Oh, yeah.
Tom:
And that can be digital, or it can be turning up with a thing. Like, the old British standard is that you turn up to a construction site with a hi-vis and a tray of tea, or a hi-vis and a clipboard, and everyone will let you through, but—
Alex:
And you say, "Can you open the door? My hands are full."
Tom:
Yeah.
Jack:
(chuckles)
Tom:
A box of donuts will let you tailgate in. That feels like the American version, but...
Jack:
No, I like thinking.
Tom:
Her colleagues. Like it was, she was asked to bring it in by her colleagues.
Alex:
Was one of them on holiday, and they were...
SFX:
(group laughing)
Manu:
No. I think the kind of the physical element is really interesting. Like you should— you can follow that.
Tom:
Okay.
Jack:
Okay.
Alex:
The jam inside the donuts?
Jack:
(giggles) Contain a secret code.
Manu:
Think more... Yeah, more the kind of action of physically going and breaching security is...
Tom:
Hm.
Manu:
Yeah.
Alex:
I suppose if you— So is it about the bringing in a set of donuts and going 'round to every person's desk with a donut, so you get to see everyone's screen or something?
Jack:
Ah, yeah.
Tom:
Or it gets everyone away from their desk at some point as they go to pick up a donut.
Alex:
Yeah, everyone runs to the donuts, yeah.
Jack:
I was thinking it was a more personality test. You bring a variety, and then the one who picks the sort of pink glazed one is the weakest of the pack.
Alex:
I tell you what, it would be so embarrassing if their security is thwarted by everyone going, "Oh, donuts!" and everyone runs away eating their donut, and then you just sit down and look at their email.
Tom:
It'd be so embarrassing if the psychological profile was based on donuts.
Alex:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. True, true. In the name of corporate security. So, okay. Who could have ordered these? So like, is it gonna be human resources, or is is it gonna be... someone from inside the company? Or is there gonna be someone else? Is it gonna be like the FBI or like...
Jack:
It does sound like an unpleasant job if she was required to do it. She didn't volunteer, I presume.
Alex:
Yeah, I feel like she's walking in like a hostage negotiator. Sweating, shaking with the donuts.
SFX:
(group chuckling)
Manu:
She wasn't the one to suggest bringing donuts in. And she wasn't following a company policy.
Jack:
Oh, is this... Is this like corporate espionage? So was she working for Coca-Cola, and Pepsi were like, "Ooh, deliver these donuts"?
Alex:
Well she might be working for a donut company.
Jack:
Yeah.
Tom:
(laughs)
Alex:
It might be like a recall or rival donuts or something, and they're testing to see whether they've been nicked.
Manu:
I think going back to the... going around the office, looking at other people's computers is really good. But I would flip that on its head.
Jack:
Going around other people's computers looking at their donuts.
SFX:
(group laughing)
Manu:
Ahh.
Alex:
So drawing— So do you mean by drawing people away from their desks, by putting the donuts somewhere and seeing who leaves their computer unlocked?
Manu:
It's like kind of the opposite. So, the donuts are more of the end of the story. They're the consequences.
Jack:
Oh, okay.
Alex:
Is it like Homer Simpson spilling donuts on his— on the control panel? So it's the irresponsible employees that eat donuts at their desk?
Jack:
Is it that they— she didn't tell anyone? She left them in the kitchen, and then the last person to get a donut was clearly the best at staying at their desk, which is a quite dystopian way to measure productivity.
Alex:
But that's not really security is it?
Jack:
No, that's right.
Manu:
Oh, you guys are so close.
Jack:
Sure, I can feel it!
SFX:
(group laughing)
Manu:
Oh. She— She is the one that's messed up.
Jack:
Oh, so she's apologising with the donuts.
Tom:
Oh! There are places where if you screw up, the corporate culture is you apologise with a thing.
Jack:
Yeah, it's like a forfeit, right?
Tom:
Yeah.
Alex:
Right.
Jack:
It's like, if you get a hole in one, in a golf club, you have to pay for a round of drinks for the whole bar.
Alex:
Right, okay. Yeah, yeah.
Tom:
If you click on the phishing email.
Jack:
(gasps)
Manu:
Not exactly, but you are very, very close.
Alex:
She leave her laptop on a train? She works for the government.
Manu:
Ohhh!
Alex:
And because of the massive lack of accountability in this country, all she has to do is buy some donuts.
Jack:
(giggles)
Manu:
Oh, it's so close.
Jack:
Then she left her computer unlocked.
Manu:
(widens eyes)
Jack:
Yeah! Yeah, yeah! Sorry, I'm just measuring your reactions to every word I say.
SFX:
(others laughing)
Jack:
So she left her computer unlocked, and then they changed the password to "you have to buy us some donuts".
Manu:
Oh, that's— that is so close. I think you've got that.
Jack:
Basically.
Alex:
Yeah.
Manu:
So the office had a policy that, yeah, employees had to lock their computers when leaving them unattended for any length of time. Sarah left hers unlocked for a while, and a coworker used it to send an email around as if they were Sarah, offering to bring in donuts.
Jack:
That's so funny.
Manu:
And this caught on as like a kind of company culture. If you left your computer unlocked, it became like a competition to go and send that email to everyone, so you had to buy donuts.
Jack:
That's quite neat.
Alex:
Nice. That's actually quite nice, yeah.
Manu:
It's really nice.
Jack:
I remember doing something similar when someone left Facebook open, and I'd be like, "is stupid" as a status.
Manu:
Ahh!
SFX:
(guys laughing)
Manu:
Oh, I remember that.
Jack:
Yeah.
Manu:
So embarrassing. Yeah, so good.
Tom:
Thank you to Louise Hubbard, Ben, and Jake for sending this next question in. In November 2018, a large department store in Newcastle upon Tyne, England spent a small fortune on their festive display. However, a nearby ranch of Greggs simply turned their sign around. Why? I'll say that again. In November 2018, a large department store in Newcastle upon Tyne, England spent a small fortune on their festive display. However, a nearby branch of Greggs simply turned their sign around. Why?
Jack:
Is this one of those... ambigrams, that's what I'm thinking, where you can read it something different upside down. So there's some word for pasty or something that's gonna read differently when it's upside down.
Alex:
It does make me think of possibly the best Christmas branding on a high street is Leon, the fast food, like healthy place. Which just changes theirs to Noel.
Jack:
Oh, brilliant.
Manu:
Awh. Nice. Is it like the back of the sign is a mirror or something, and they were opposite the display, and then they were like, "We're just going to use the reflection"?
Jack:
(wheezes)
Tom:
Oh! Oh, keep going, Manu.
Alex:
Ooh?
Manu:
Oh. That's as far as I got. Okay, reflection of the—
Alex:
They turned their sign around.
Tom:
That's basically it, yes. There's— But why would they do that? Why are they gonna use the reflection all of a sudden?
Alex:
Because they— Because the the first shop made a massive backwards Christmas display. So if you look at the reflection, it's gonna be the right way around.
Jack:
Well, presumably Greggs want to turn people towards Greggs.
Alex:
Yes.
Jack:
And probably away from the department store.
Tom:
Mhm, yeah. You even hit the key word there, which was 'reflection'.
Jack:
And is this linked to Christmas? I'm trying to think what's reflective about Christmas.
Alex:
Yeah, you're right. It said festive display. It didn't necessarily say Christmas actually.
Jack:
Ooh.
Tom:
It is the Christmas display, yeah.
Jack:
It's a time for reflection, isn't it?
SFX:
(Alex and Jack giggle)
Alex:
It's a time for grace.
Manu:
The lights being reflected off the display?
Tom:
Yes.
Manu:
And pingin'?
Tom:
Oh, you are so close here. I wouldn't— I just—
Manu:
(sighs)
Jack:
This must happen quite a lot. (laughs)
Tom:
Have a think of the scene here. Where are you setting the scene?
Jack:
Okay, in my mind, you are already within the department store. There's like a Santa's grotto under the escalators.
Manu:
Mm.
Jack:
And there's a branch of Greggs, like within, you know, visible distance.
Tom:
We are not inside the department store here.
Manu:
Okay, so you're opposite the department store?
Tom:
Mhm.
Alex:
On the high street, yeah.
Tom:
Yep, this is a high street window display like a lot of the department stores have. Just, they just— instead of having the clothes and whatever, they just have a big old festive display in there.
Jack:
Sure, sure.
Alex:
And is the reflection in the window of Greggs?
Jack:
No, it's gotta be in the department store, I think.
Tom:
It's— Mm, you're— Oh, you're so nearly there! I'm just gonna let you—
Alex:
Oh, I see. Oh, I see. So the department store's reflect— display was very mirror based, and you could see the Greggs inside the display.
Jack:
No, but then Greggs wouldn't have to do anything. Why would they have to turn the sign around?
Alex:
Because they're backwards in the mirror. So therefore you have—
Jack:
Oh, so Greggs just flipped the sign so that you could read it.
Tom:
You've got all the key words apart from 'mirror' here. It is, I guess technically a mirror, but there's something else more obvious for street display.
Jack:
Oh, it's a disco ball or a— Oh, it's just the glass.
Tom:
It's just the glass.
Alex:
It's just the glass.
SFX:
(Jack and Alex laugh)
Tom:
It's just the glass. This is a high street shop with a big old window display in front.
Jack:
Okay.
Tom:
So why...
Alex:
Taking photos? Taking selfies?
Jack:
Ah, taking photos.
Tom:
Yes. So... The shop has set out its display behind the glass. Folks are coming up, they're gawping at the display. They're taking the pictures and posting them to social media. And in the background of every one of those is the reflection of 'GREGGS' the right way 'round.
Jack:
(wheezes)
Manu:
Oh!
Alex:
That's so good.
Jack:
That's really good.
Alex:
That's so good.
Manu:
So cool.
Jack:
'Cause yeah, it'll be backlit, won't it?
Alex:
Yeah, yeah.
Tom:
Yep. This big old bright Greggs bakery logo is just ruining –
Alex:
Ruining everyone's—
Tom:
every single shot of that display!
Alex:
That's so good. I love that.
Manu:
That's very clever.
Tom:
Alex, over to you.
Alex:
This question has been sent in by Oliver R, Gee Norman, and Casey Ford. Thanks to a necessary change in the shirt layout, beer company Molson could proudly advertise itself as the "hidden sponsor" of PWHL. What was the change, and why was it needed? Thanks to a necessary change in the shirt layout, beer company Molson could proudly advertise itself as the quote-unquote "hidden sponsor" of the PWHL. What was the change, and why was it needed?
Jack:
Oh, I think... I think I might be close to this one.
Tom:
Okay.
Jack:
Should I save my thoughts? Yeah.
Tom:
Alright. I am thinking... and I hope I've not gone straight to this. Pee Wee Hockey League. PWHL.
Alex:
You are on the right lines. You haven't got it all right.
Tom:
Oh, okay, okay. But Molson's Canadian, so I was thinking hockey.
Alex:
Yeah, well, I think you should stick on that road.
Tom:
Okay.
Jack:
I think it's somewhere else. It's like the... I can't think of anywhere in Canada beginning with P, but you know, Pennsylvania Women's Hockey League or something.
Alex:
Okay, yes. Even closer, yes.
Jack:
Okay, so, and then I'm also thinking did they... this... It's a specific phrase, the sort of shirt structure, did you say, shirt design?
Alex:
Yeah.
Jack:
So I think—
Alex:
The shirt layout. The layout.
Jack:
The layout, yeah. So I think they might have some buttons or something. And so that when you... when you open it, as you do every hockey game to reveal your bare chest... it's something to do with the... the thing being split in half and reading differently.
Alex:
Yes. You're all on another right track there as well.
Jack:
It reminds me of... this is a bit of a tangent, but it's related: in the Six Nations, the Welsh rugby team was sponsored by a brewery. And they were called Brains, in fact, which is quite a good name for a brewery. And then when they played in France, there are different laws about advertising alcohol, so they weren't allowed to wear the shirt, so they had new ones made that had the same font and it just said "Brawn", which I thought was great.
Tom:
Eyyy.
Alex:
Nice.
Manu:
Nice.
Jack:
Clever way around.
Manu:
Is it maybe like rolling up the sleeves or something to do with... as the shirts compressed somehow.
Jack:
What do we know about hockey? Don't they wear pads, like shoulder pads? I'm trying to think. And it was a necessary shirt layout change.
Alex:
It was a necessary— It was thanks to a necessary change in the shirt layout. So if they had a shirt layout, it had to be changed, and...
Tom:
On a women's hockey league.
Alex:
Yes. And then thanks to that change, the beer company could then advertise itself as the "hidden sponsor".
Manu:
Oh, is it something to do with... making room for boobs? That's the only difference I can think, But I dunno where stuff would be hidden. So that's not—
Alex:
Yeah, I would carry on down that road.
Tom:
Really?
Manu:
Oh, okay.
Alex:
Not necessarily specifically that, but— that— you're in the general area of like... It's a good thought. It's a good thought.
Tom:
When you say "general area"...
Alex:
(laughs) Not— No, not that area.
Tom:
Okay.
Jack:
Molsons make Coors, don't they? C-double-O-R-S.
Alex:
(laughs) I see where you're going.
Tom:
No, no, no.
Alex:
No, it's not. I'll tell you, no, it's not that, no.
Manu:
Is it something around the chest area of a shirt?
Alex:
No.
Jack:
It's on the back. Or the sleeves, maybe.
Alex:
Yes.
Jack:
There are three parts of a shirt.
Alex:
Yeah. Yes.
Jack:
Or collar maybe? And we don't— I assume we don't need to guess the 'P'. That's not gonna help us.
Alex:
No.
Jack:
No. It's just a location or a university.
Alex:
No, you've got the important letters already.
Tom:
So maybe the design changed because they based it on the men's hockey uniform.
Jack:
Ah, okay.
Alex:
(nods) Uh-huh.
Tom:
And then had to change something for the women's.
Jack:
It's a bit more cinched in at the waist.
Alex:
(chuckles)
Tom:
One of us is gonna get in trouble here, Jack.
Jack:
Yeah, I know.
Alex:
(cackles)
Jack:
I'm dancing around something.
Alex:
But you're definitely— you're on the right lines of, they changed the design because of that.
Manu:
Wait, is it on the back or on the sleeves?
Alex:
Yes, it's on the back
Manu:
On the back. Is it physically fitting in more letters? Is it to do with spacing?
Alex:
You're on the right lines. Yeah, it's about spacing and letters and yeah.
Jack:
Is it to do with their shirt number?
Alex:
It's actually not to do with the number. That's the only bit that it's not to do with.
Jack:
I don't know much about hockey.
Tom:
I genuinely thought that sentence was gonna end with 'women'. I'm really sorry.
SFX:
(guests laughing)
Tom:
I dunno why!
Alex:
I think maybe try and picture the back of one of these players and what's on there and what you're seeing.
Manu:
Oh. Is it a ponytail?
Alex:
Yes! Okay, yeah, this is—
Jack:
Goodness! Okay, yeah. I was just trying to think—
Tom:
Keep talking, Manu.
Alex:
Yeah.
Manu:
Alright, so... The ponytail's in the way, so they have to change the spacing of the letters so that the ponytail doesn't fall in front of one of them, or...
Jack:
Wow.
Manu:
change a design so that their hair can flow back.
Alex:
That's 100% the... That's 100% the gist of it, yes.
Jack:
So, just such late-stage capitalism that you have to change your shirt so the hair doesn't get in front of the sponsors.
Alex:
Well, think about the question though. Thanks to a necessary change in the shirt layout, a beer company could now proudly advertise itself as the "hidden sponsor" of PWHL.
Manu:
Hidden sponsor.
Tom:
So did they move the name... down to like the lumbar or somewhere lower, and swap it with the sponsor?
Alex:
Yes, that is exactly what they did. So this was the Professional Women's Hockey League, which was founded in 2023. And quickly, it became apparent that the shirts had a design flaw. If the players had long hair, which women more often tend to do, and have ponytails, the surname at the top of the shirt was obscured. So you couldn't see which player it was. So they moved the player numb— sorry. They moved the surname to below the player number so that they could read it. And they had to then put the sponsor somewhere else. And under the initiative, quote, "See My Name", the Canadian beer company Molson stepped in to sponsor the top of the shirt, which is no longer of any use. And then one of their taglines read, "We covered our name so hers could be seen." So they're a bit kind of self-aware about it, but you know, yeah, that's— it's brilliant. I love it, yeah.
Manu:
So cool.
Jack:
That's kind of like, yeah. It was the opposite of late-stage capitalism. But actually maybe just sort of even more, you know.
Alex:
They found a way to make it work, didn't they?
Jack:
Exactly.
Alex:
Yeah, yeah.
Jack:
Oh, amazing.
Tom:
One final thing then, which is the question I asked right at the start of the show. Thank you to Katie Waning for sending this one in. Where in Spain can you find a dial that can be turned to tomato, wine, or olive oil? Does anyone want to take a shot at that before I tell the audience the answer?
Manu:
We've... we've done this.
Jack:
We've done all those three episodes.
Alex:
Have we?
Jack:
Yeah.
Manu:
Yeah.
Tom:
Oh. Oh, I thought you'd done this specific thing.
Manu:
Oh no, we have.
Jack:
No, Manu knows?
Manu:
Yeah, I do. We did. Do you remember it, Jack? We got so excited about this for QI research.
Tom:
Oh!
Manu:
It's a washing machine setting.
Jack:
Oh, that's it!
Tom:
It absolutely is, yes.
Alex:
Wait, explain it?
Manu:
Oh, so it's for different stains. So some of them have blood as well. It's not just food.
SFX:
(guys laughing)
Manu:
It's so funny.
Tom:
Yes, these are certain brands of washing machines for the Spanish and Portuguese market, which have particular settings for tomato stain, wine stain, and olive oil stain. Thank you very much to our players. Where can people find the podcast? What's going on there? We will start with Jack.
Jack:
So you can go to qi.com/lunchbox, or you could just go wherever you find your podcasts and find us – we're Lunchbox Envy. And we're on social media at @LunchboxEnvyPod.
Tom:
And Manu, what sort of things will they find there?
Manu:
So we've just done a load of research on sandwiches, and I brought in a historical one, which was carb-on-carb goodness – Mrs Beeton's toast sandwich, and everyone loved it. Alex in particular.
Alex:
It was really, really delicious.
Tom:
And Alex, as producer, what is the worst food you've had to deal with on that show so far?
Alex:
I think without a doubt turnip ice cream, which is, I think I made it.
SFX:
(group laughing)
Alex:
I keep making these horrible foods, and I never tried them, and that was maybe one of the worst ones. I think everyone really hated that one.
Tom:
Well, thank you very much for running our gauntlet today. If you wanna know more about this show, you can do that at lateralcast.com, where you can also send in your own ideas for questions. We are at @lateralcast basically everywhere, and there are full video episodes every week on Spotify. Thank you very much to Alex Bell.
Alex:
Thank you, Tom.
Tom:
Manu Henriot.
Manu:
Thank you.
Tom:
And Jack Chambers.
Jack:
Thank you very much.
Tom:
I've been Tom Scott, and that's been Lateral.
Episode Credits
| HOST | Tom Scott |
| QUESTION PRODUCER | David Bodycombe |
| EDITED BY | Julie Hassett at The Podcast Studios, Dublin |
| MUSIC | Karl-Ola Kjellholm ('Private Detective'/'Agrumes', courtesy of epidemicsound.com) |
| ADDITIONAL QUESTIONS | Peter Young, Oliver R., Gee Norman, Casey Ford, Katie Waning, Phil Thompson, Michael, Louise Hubbard, Ben, Jake |
| FORMAT | Pad 26 Limited/Labyrinth Games Ltd |
| EXECUTIVE PRODUCERS | David Bodycombe and Tom Scott |