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Episode 184: Popcorn in the sea
17th April, 2026 • Dani Siller, Bill Sunderland and Sarah Renae Clark face questions about funny flops, curious cubes and rolling races.
Transcription by Caption+
Tom:
Since 1964, people have copied something Richard tried in Tokyo, even though it was a flop. What is it?
The answer to that at the end of the show. My name's Tom Scott, and this is Lateral.
(softly) Before we begin, I need to warn you. If you hear any unexplained tapping, eerie whispers, or a cold chill down your spine, you're listening to this podcast correctly. We've discovered that the studio is haunted by a ghost who died tragically young after reading the comments section. But don't worry. The ghost mostly flickers the lights, rearranges the snacks, and occasionally corrects our spelling.
And I'm delighted to report that three guests have bravely agreed to join us in the spectral realm.
First, we have: from Escape This Podcast and many other things besides:
Bill Sunderland, welcome back to the show.
Bill:
I'm happy to be back.
Let me just reveal some behind-the-scenes stuff here, for anybody listening at home.
Tom:
Yeah, yeah.
Bill:
We just— We've recorded an episode with Tom saying, "Oh, I've got a hurt throat. I'm feeling little bit sick."
Tom:
(laughs)
Bill:
And then I'm assuming on the spot, the producer has gone, "Alright, I'm gonna write a bit to be done in a harsh whisper. That'll get him."
Tom:
Well the thing is, my notes actually say: "stage whisper or ASMR."
Now, I'm not doing ASMR for people.
SFX:
(guests laughing)
Tom:
And if I do a stage whisper with the voice I've got, that's what comes out.
So my apologies to anyone who is slightly off put by the throaty whisper there. That's the best I can manage.
SFX:
(guests giggling)
Bill:
No, it was great. It was lovely. I just think it put you through a lot, and I hope you're doing alright.
SFX:
(others laughing)
Tom:
This show has put me through a lot, Bill! How are you doing?
Bill:
I'm doing well. I'm doing great. I'm looking forward to another episode. This should be a lot of fun. This is a good group, and I'm enjoying it.
Tom:
Well, we are also joined by the other half of Escape This Podcast and many other things besides:
Dani Siller, welcome back to the show.
Dani:
Thank you.
Your intro made me wanna give a creepy "We're heeere" or something like that. But I've only read the script to Poltergeist. I haven't actually seen it, so I have no idea how the little girl says that.
Tom:
You've only read the script of Poltergeist?
Dani:
When I'm scared of movies, and I think that they'll be too scary or too sad for me, I read the script instead.
Sarah:
I do the same.
Dani:
It's so good!
SFX:
(group laughing)
Tom:
Not like the Wikipedia description of it. Okay, yeah.
Dani:
No, no. Full script.
Tom:
Okay!
Dani:
It's great.
Tom:
Do you wanna plug what you do at any point here, Dani, or do we just wanna roll into the next guest?
Dani:
Well, it turns out: Silence of the Lambs, great script. Recommend that one to everybody.
SFX:
(Tom and Sarah giggle)
Tom:
Well, good luck to both of you on the show today.
We are joined by... (sighs) the guest with one of the best backgrounds it is possible to have on a video call:
Sarah Renae Clark, welcome back to the show. Do you wanna explain, and you're gonna have to do this both in video and audio description...
Sarah:
Right.
Tom:
What is behind you?
Sarah:
So behind me is the embodiment of a colouring book on a wall.
Tom:
Mhm.
Sarah:
It's actually not drawn. It's actually hundreds of vinyl stickers that I spent hours designing and then cutting. But you could only cut 12 by 12 inches at a time. So then it was a giant jigsaw puzzle, which I intend to never do again.
SFX:
(Tom and Dani laugh)
Sarah:
And it brings a lot of comments on my YouTube channel saying, "When are you gonna colour in the wall?" And the answer is never.
Tom:
Because that is what you do. You do art and colouring and colour.
Sarah:
Yes. I started out as colouring books. Now I like to just explore all kinds of art. And do crazy big projects that take hundreds of hours and drive my team a little crazy and break all our deadlines, but they're a lot of fun.
Tom:
Well, good luck to you and all our players on the show today.
Let us open a portal, ideally a metaphorical one, as we summon the spirit of question one.
Thank you to Jesse Sefton for this question.
During the filming of Black Swan, an actress regularly sustained injuries while playing her character. This happened so often that the crew coined a highly appropriate word for it. What was that word?
I'll say that again.
During the filming of Black Swan, an actress regularly sustained injuries while playing her character. This happened so often that the crew coined a highly appropriate word for it. What was that word?
Dani:
I've seen Black Swan.
Tom:
You haven't just read the script.
SFX:
(Dani and Sarah laugh)
Dani:
This was before I found that out, and I've since found out that everyone does list Black Swan as a horror movie. That was news to me at the time.
Sarah:
I believe I have— may have read the script and not watched it actually.
SFX:
(group laughing)
Bill:
Well I've done neither, but here I am with the correct answer. The phrase was: 'No-toe-lie Portman', and she had no toes, and that's what they said about her.
Dani:
Look, it's not impossible that you're basically there.
Bill:
She had to stand on pointe in her ballet shoes. Then her toes fell off. So they called her 'No-toe-lie Portman'.
Dani:
You're joking. You— I don't know how you were so confident to be able to say that out loud this quickly. Because you could be right!
Bill:
It's No-to-lie Portman.
Tom:
You could be right! It is Natalie Portman – lead actress in Black Swan.
Dani:
But it's not No-toe.
Tom:
It is her toe, which was repeatedly injured.
Dani:
(laughs)
Tom:
It is not...
Bill:
'No-toe-lie'.
Tom:
'No-toe-lie' Portman.
Dani:
(laughs) I was...
Tom:
So close, you have all the ingredients, but there is an even more appropriate joke than that.
Dani:
Okay, now, I was going to say, I thought— I know— There's a lot of body horror and sorts of things in that movie, pretty light compared to something like The Substance. But I did wonder, is she 'Toenail-ie Portman'? Does her toenails fall off?
Bill:
Ooh.
Sarah:
I mean, is that something that would ha— I'm assuming that would probably trim her toenails if she's gonna be on pointe. but definitely like breaking her toe, or black— Black Swan, black bruises.
Bill:
Black toe.
Dani:
Is there anything we can do with 'Portman'? We focused very heavily on 'Natalie' here.
Bill:
Hurtman... Port...
Dani:
'Natalie Por-toe'.
Bill:
Natalie Por-toe...man.
Dani:
(giggles)
Tom:
(giggles washily)
Sorry... I'm keeping my mouth shut. 'Cause at some point, you're gonna put the syllables in the right order.
Dani:
(laughs heartily)
Bill:
Nata-limp-ortman.
SFX:
(others laughing)
Bill:
Nata-limp-ortman.
Sarah:
This just feels mean at this point.
Dani:
I know!
Tom:
It does, but you are so close! I mean, Sarah, you could just say some words, and you will stumble across it.
Sarah:
I need to map this out on Post-it notes. That's what I'm gonna do.
Tom:
Please do, please do.
Sarah:
I'm gonna write out all the letters and do a scramble, but you said syllables. We're gonna keep them in syllables.
Tom:
Yeah.
Dani:
Por-nail-ie Turt-man.
Bill:
Natalie Bunions.
Tom:
No, no. There are no new words required here. You have literally all the syllables. And at some point, something is gonna clunk in someone's head, and you're gonna yell a really appropriate word.
Bill:
How rearranged is this?
Dani:
Man-por-toenail-ie.
Tom:
Really not rearranged at all.
Sarah:
Okay. Are we going 'Port', or are we going 'Por'?
Tom:
'Port', 'Port'. Cut it at 'Port'.
Sarah:
Port, okay.
Bill:
Port.
Sarah:
Alright. What have we got here?
(holds up Post-it notes)
We got 'Port'...
Bill:
'Man'.
Sarah:
We got 'Lee', 'Lie'. She's lying down.
Bill:
Port-li-a-man-at.
Sarah:
I'm just putting these in a...
Dani:
Oh my god! Tom's face.
Bill:
Port... Portlie...
Tom:
You've missed a syllable there. You've missed a key syllable.
You've got 'Nat', 'A', 'Lie', 'Port'... And you—
Bill:
'Man'.
Tom:
And also—
Dani:
We need the 'Toe' part.
Tom:
You need the 'Toe'.
You don't need all those syllables. You need another one. You need 'Toe' on that list you've got.
Sarah:
Okay, so 'A' is not 'Nat-a-lie'. It's 'Na-toe-lie'.
Dani:
Por-toe-na-lie-man.
Tom:
Oh my god!
SFX:
(guests laugh heartily)
Bill:
Poor-toe.
Sarah:
Porto.
Tom:
Oh my god! You're so close!
Dani:
(giggles profusely)
Sarah:
Port toe...
Bill:
Portmantoe. It's a portmanteau.
Tom:
Portman toe!
Sarah:
(snorts)
Dani:
(giggles)
Tom:
Why is that so appropriate?
Bill:
Because in Black Swan, they take Natalie Portman and Mila Kunis, and they stick her together. Like a portmanteau... of a dancer.
Dani:
Her toes got stuck together.
Sarah:
The portmanteau is when you put two words together, right?
Tom:
And what have they done?
Sarah:
Put her two names together.
Tom:
They've put two words together!
Bill:
Yeah.
Tom:
It is a portmanteau...
Sarah:
It was right here.
Tom:
of Portman and toe— it was right there!
Dani:
I'm sorry!
Tom:
The number of times you said— You said 'Toe Portman'. You said 'Port Toeman'. You said every possible arrangement of those syllables other than Port-man-toe.
Bill:
It's her fault for having the word toe in her name!
Dani:
I'm still going to call her 'Toenail-ie Portman' from now on.
Bill:
It's 'Toenail-ie Portman'. We all know it.
SFX:
(group giggling)
Tom:
The history— just— I'll give you the details.
This was Natalie Portman in Black Swan, which is, yes, about a ballet dancer. She injured herself so regularly that the downtime became known as the 'Natalie Portman's Left Toe Delay'. That was shortened to 'Portman-toe', which is a portmanteau of 'Portman' and 'toe'.
(breathes sharply)
Bill:
That's it.
Dani:
(giggles)
Bill:
Well, when you say it like that, it makes perfect sense.
Tom:
Like we're laughing about this. She also had a dislocated rib.
Dani:
Oh yeah. I knew that it was terrible.
Tom:
The production didn't have the money to hire a medic. So she gave up her trailer, so they could afford to hire a medic. We're laughing about this. She had a terrible time.
Sarah:
Wow. That's horrible.
Tom:
Sarah, would you give us the next question, please?
SFX:
(guests giggling)
Sarah:
Sure.
This question has been sent in by Martin Aitken. So:
Built in 1857, the Britannia Panopticon in Glasgow is the world's oldest surviving music hall. How did failing to upgrade the building with modern conveniences help keep the building standing today?
Built in 1857, the Britannia Panopticon in Glasgow is the world's oldest surviving music hall. How did failing to upgrade the building with modern conveniences help keep the building standing today?
Dani:
Alright. What modern conveniences do we think of first?
Bill:
I mean, my brain got thrown off completely by 'Panopticon', because I'm used to panopticon being a sort of dystopian prison design, in which all the cells can be seen from the central watchtower, so that everyone feels like they're watched all the time. That's—
Tom:
Maybe it just meant everyone has a good view?
Bill:
Yeah, everybody can see. It's a panopticon. Anybody can see the music at this music hall.
Tom:
Like there's the Leeds City Varieties. There's the Hippodrome in Great Yarmouth. There's lots of names like that, for that sort of building, that sort of time. They pick a fancy name.
Bill:
Yeah. And a panopticon.
Dani:
So yeah, I'm thinking of like, oh, they didn't install sliding doors, and somehow when a big Glasgow earthquake happened, this was very good for the building.
Tom:
I'm not sure there's ever been a big Glasgow earthquake.
Dani:
But that's definitely a substantial problem with the theory.
Tom:
But also, 'the big Glasgow earthquake' is someone you meet on a night out in Kelvinside, so...
SFX:
(Dani and Bill laugh)
Tom:
Conveniences... in British English can mean toilets. If you want, particularly in that kind of era, if you have— if you don't wanna be crass enough to say like 'public toilets', there could be a sign that says 'public conveniences'.
Dani:
Yeah, that definitely sounds like a good place to go.
Tom:
So I'm guessing they didn't upgrade the toilets.
Dani:
Was there a horrible sewage backup in Glasgow in 1858 or something?
Tom:
Oh, that's also someone you meet in Kelvinside.
Dani:
(guffaws)
Sarah:
Yeah. (laughs) It's not specifically a sewage problem, but I think you are on the right track in thinking of toilets as conveniences.
Bill:
Could it be, is it something that like, everywhere else needed to have all their toilets replaced? 'Cause every toilet built in the 1800s was made out of poison, and they were like, "Oh, we can't have these poison toilets."
Dani:
Ah, the lead toilet phase. That's fair.
Bill:
We can't have all these poison toilets here. We've gotta rip 'em up, and that would've been bad for the building. But they're like, "We never even put toilets in. We just dug holes in the ground."
Sarah:
Part of, I guess what you need to think about is when were toilets invented? If anyone knows the answer.
Tom:
(laughs)
Sarah:
(giggles)
Bill:
Ooh, interesting.
Sarah:
Pull that one outta the back of your brain, you know.
Dani:
In the way that we think of them now, not a clue.
Tom:
I remember reading somewhere that... public toilets used to be very uncommon, and I can't remember what era that was. But it was a whole thing about women's mobility. Because if there weren't public toilets... most men will just be able to, you know, go somewhere discreet.
Dani:
Ohhh.
Tom:
Women can't. Like, for the most part, that's— that was— that kept women at home.
Dani:
Yeah.
Tom:
That was— Now I don't think that's to do with this. I'm just thinking like, 1857 may not have been the era of public toilets yet.
Dani:
I think that your— I— my following on from that made me think, hey, most places had toilets, but they only had men's toilets until some time later, when having men's and women's toilets became mandatory. And a whole bunch of people had to spend a lot of money to change their toilet setup.
But this place had no toilets at all, so it didn't have to at this point. Or it just had one big trough for everyone, and it was much easier to replace.
Sarah:
I'm gonna... just remind you of something from the original question.
Bill:
Please.
Sarah:
Where... the failing to upgrade to modern conveniences, and happy to lead you on with the toilets there... helped keep the building standing today.
Dani:
Oh yeah, standing.
Bill:
Yeah. Why would putting in toilets make your building fall over? That's my question.
Sarah:
That is a good question, and maybe not the right question. You have to think a little bit laterally, but it's a question in the right direction.
Bill:
On this show?
SFX:
(Tom and Sarah laugh)
Bill:
How dare you!
Okay, so, I've got a building that presumably doesn't have toilets. And then they go, "Hey, we've got this cool new thing. It's called toilets. Why don't you put 'em in?"
And they went, "Nah, no, no, don't worry about it."
But if they'd said, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, worry about it," the building would've collapsed in some fashion. Because...
Tom:
The building work would've knocked down the building. Maybe the building wasn't built well.
Dani:
It's definitely making it sound like something about shoddy construction was happening.
Bill:
Or just like the wrong type of construction.
Sarah:
Alright, I'm gonna... not let you get too carried away on that. Okay. This is less about what this building... It's less about why this building would have fallen... With toilets – it actually may not have – but maybe why it survived because of the lack of toilets.
Bill:
The great fire of Glasgow.
Sarah:
(hisses softly)
Dani:
Is this a flammable gases situation?
Bill:
And they didn't have toilets.
Tom:
Okay, so they didn't have modern toilets. What did they have instead?
Dani:
Well, apparently just a bunch of dudes who would be ready to pee on the fire.
SFX:
(Tom and Sarah laugh)
Dani:
That's...
Sarah:
I mean, it's actually not a bad train of thought, even though it's maybe not directly the right way to go.
Bill:
They just, they didn't have proper plumbing. So they just had their own big water tanks somewhere at the top of the building. So when it caught fire, they could just pour water over everything.
Tom:
Yes. Because that's how... Rather than having an individual tank for each toilet, each urinal, each whatever, they just had a big water tank at the top of the building. So when the fire came along, they could douse it?
Sarah:
We're moving a little bit away.
Tom:
Agh!
Sarah:
Unfortunately, this maybe comes down to a little bit of the problem with some of humanity. Because we are talking about, in this situation, a lot of drunk people who are enjoying their show. So it may be less about what they have proactively done to prevent something and maybe more about... what they did out of—
Bill:
Oh! Is it just because there were no toilets, as Tom said, all the men discreetly went outside, peed on the side of the building constantly. So it was too inundated with...
Tom:
(laughs) Oh, no!
Bill:
drunk patron pee, that it couldn't catch fire, because it was all wet? It was all wet from the people peeing on it. So it couldn't catch fire.
Sarah:
You are so close!
Tom:
What?!
Bill:
I've got it!
Tom:
What?
Dani:
(giggles chirpily)
Sarah:
You are so close.
Bill:
I think...
Dani:
What?!
Bill:
That's a pee-drenched building.
Sarah:
It is a pee-drenched building. But way worse than you think.
Tom:
Oh wait, do they not have a sewer outlet?
Sarah:
So you're assuming that people still made an effort to find somewhere to go?
Dani:
(stifles giggling)
Tom:
No!
Sarah:
In fact... the audience were enjoying the show so much. And... they were rowdy, they were drunk. They were often reluctant to make their way out to anywhere else appropriate. So they just did what they needed to do right where they were.
Dani:
(laughs breathily)
Sarah:
And this happened so much, and the timber floors and the joists absorbed extraordinary amounts of moisture and ammonia.
Bill:
That's lovely.
Sarah:
So, the timber structure became too damp to catch fire, and the ammonia helped to preserve the wood.
Dani:
Wow!
Tom:
Wow!
Bill:
There we go.
Dani:
That's a choice!
Bill:
You gotta pee on your public buildings, everybody. That's the messaging that Lateral would like to put out into the world.
Tom:
Thank you to David for this next question.
In the 1940s and '50s, John Stapp rode on a sled when there was no snow but lots of water. After each short journey, he would go home in one of two vehicles. What were they, and why did he often dress in the dark?
So, one more time.
In the 1940s and '50s, John Stapp rode on a sled when there was no snow but lots of water. After each short journey, he would go home in one of two vehicles. What were they, and why did he often dress in the dark?
Dani:
What?
Bill:
You can't just— And how many toes did he have? And what was his cat's name?
SFX:
(others laughing)
Tom:
Every single question in this question... makes sense, I promise you. I weirdly had heard of John Stapp. Everything in here makes sense, I promise.
Bill:
Okay.
Dani:
Alright. So dressing in the dark. Do we think that he is making a deliberate choice for this? Or is it just really late at night slash really early morning? Where are we vibing?
Bill:
Oh, is it like, he races the sun on a sled, and so he has to be dressed in the dark? 'Cause he is gotta be wearing clothes when he races the sun.
Dani:
I think he is otherwise known as Helios, and he's carrying the sun.
Bill:
Oh, is this Helios, and he's carrying the sun?
Tom:
(laughs)
Bill:
Yeah, okay. Let's list out our facts outside of the question. I know it's early, but I feel like I just need to...
Dani:
That'd be great.
Bill:
There's a man named John.
Tom:
John.
Bill:
Or Joseph.
Tom:
John.
Bill:
John.
Dani:
1940s.
Bill:
And it's in the '40s, and he rides a sled, but there's no snow. The normal medium.
Tom:
There's lots of water.
Bill:
There is lots of water. So it's some kind of water sled.
Tom:
Mhm.
Bill:
He rides a water sled, but then he goes home... in one of 2 different vehicles.
Tom:
Yes.
Bill:
Either an ambulance or glory.
Tom:
Yes.
Bill:
Okay.
Tom:
Correct.
Bill:
It's ambulance or glory for John.
Tom:
Yeah, well, an ambulance or his own car. I dunno what the car was called. It might have been called Glory. But yes, you're right that it was either an ambulance or his own car. Very strong stunt.
Bill:
Okay, so I answered a question. He goes on his water sled, and he either gets it terribly wrong, or it works really, really well. And he gets in his car, and he drives home in glory.
Dani:
I note that there is a lot of water. Do we think we're talking like flood levels? Middle of the Amazon levels? What sort of— yeah.
Bill:
What about Canada–America border levels?
Dani:
Oh, goodness.
Bill:
He's going over Niagara. He's a waterfalling sled man.
Tom:
(laughs)
Bill:
You know waterfalling sled man?
Sarah:
Or is he a rescue worker? Like is the ambulance not for him, but he's with someone in the ambulance that he's rescued on a sled?
Dani:
That'd be clever.
Tom:
Or it would be him leaving in the ambulance. And he would be the patient. He is in uniform though. You're right about that.
Dani:
Ooh?
Bill:
Oh, he's in uniform.
Sarah:
Not a stunt man. Although you said he wasn't known in any way.
Tom:
Stunt man is close. Not the right word, but close.
Dani:
Is he otherwise known as Evil Knievel?
Tom:
I'm not sure Evil Knievel would've been brave enough to do this.
Well, actually no. Evil Knievel would've been brave enough to do this, absolutely.
Bill:
We're calling out Evil Knievel on Lateral this episode.
SFX:
(others laughing)
Tom:
No, that was unjust slander on Evil Knievel. I think Evil Knievel would've loved to have done this.
Dani:
Interesting. Okay, well now, I am thinking that something about waterfalls or massive rivers and things is along the right lines. This has gotta be something intense.
Bill:
And why a sled? What are you sledding, with all this water around? And we still haven't even touched on this getting dressed in— at night situation.
Sarah:
Was it like testing the— testing something before other people in the day would then go and— like whitewater rafting, but like in the '40s, what?
Tom:
Testing, definitely a key word though.
Sarah:
Testing.
Bill:
Okay. And is— And so are we thinking— We gotta put this out there. I don't know if we're on the same page here. Are we thinking it's like literally he dressed at night, because whatever this job is, it is imperative that it starts before sunrise or with sunrise or something?
Dani:
Yeah, it was in the dark, rather than specifically at night. But at night definitely feels like it makes sense.
Sarah:
It's not a secret identity type of situation.
Tom:
No, no-no-no.
Bill:
Nobody can know the water sled man.
Sarah:
(giggles)
Dani:
I mean, you keep saying water sled. Was he testing water slides? That doesn't feel that crazy.
Tom:
No, not neces— Remember, he's in uniform.
Dani:
Oh yes,
Bill:
He's in— So is it a military operation?
Tom:
Yes.
Sarah:
Is it about like... a safety thing of like water versus ice, and checking if... the ice has melted?
Tom:
Safety, again, you're picking up on some good key words here, Sarah. Safety, definitely.
Bill:
Is he simulating something?
Tom:
Yeah.
Bill:
You know, he's like, "This is how we're gonna land on... the beach at Normandy."
Dani:
Yeah, I was thinking, was he ejecting from things or something?
Tom:
Oh, Dani, you're very close with that.
Dani:
Ooh?
Bill:
Is this space race stuff, instead of military? We're going into— we're into the '50s.
Tom:
It's not space race, but again, it's that sort of thing. Certainly, you're sort of in the wrong direction. He's on a sled, remember.
Bill:
He's on a sled.
Sarah:
He was making sure that different locations are safe for Santa.
Bill:
It is, it's Santa testing.
Tom:
(laughs)
Bill:
Submarines?
Tom:
Oh.
Bill:
Submarine ejections, boats.
Tom:
You're getting all the right words here. Like it's not ejection, but it's that kind of force that's happening here.
Sarah:
I was thinking submarines at one point, but I don't know anything about submarines and how they work.
Tom:
Not that much water.
Bill:
Okay. River submarines.
Sarah:
And you said short trips.
Tom:
Very short trips.
Dani:
Hovercrafts.
Bill:
Hovercrafts are big. They got big '50s energy. (cracks up)
Sarah:
(giggles)
Tom:
And with space race, like you— absolutely. You're thinking space race, things like that. What did the space race have?
Sarah:
Oh, landing. When they land after the missions, they land in water.
Tom:
Wrong axis.
Dani:
Oh, okay, so...
Bill:
Left and right. We're going horizontal across the world.
Tom:
We're going horizontal.
Bill:
He's just learning to surf.
Tom:
(laughs) Okay, but also, we were talking about space race.
Bill:
Is this rockets?
Tom:
Rockets. Yes. This—
Bill:
Rocket tested— They're firing rockets out.
Tom:
This is a rocket sled.
Bill:
Oh, sweet.
Tom:
(laughs)
Dani:
No, that feels horrifying.
Sarah:
Did he come out of a rocket, and we're just— just for fun?
Bill:
He's just attached rockets as propulsion. He's just testing propulsion...
Tom:
Yep.
Bill:
rocket technology?
Tom:
Yep.
Dani:
Why on a sled?
Tom:
Why on a sled? What's being tested here?
Bill:
Coefficients of friction.
Tom:
Kind of. What are they using the water for?
Bill:
Slowing him down at the end.
Tom:
Yes. So I'm gonna picture the scene for you here.
This is a US military rocket sled, which is what they use to test rockets, things like that. It is a sled with rockets on the back, on a track. And you light the rocket, and it speeds off at anything up to 632 miles an hour, which is the record.
Bill:
That's a lot.
Tom:
And then it comes to a stop in the water, in 1.4 seconds.
Bill:
Oof! Oh, it's always the ambulance, never the car.
Sarah:
New Red Bull competition.
Tom:
Yep, you've got pretty much everything here. You've got rocket sled. You've got what he's doing. You've got all the details there.
Bill:
(laughs) Why does he dress at night?
Tom:
Why does he often dress in the dark?
Dani:
I assume that he needs to wear... a million layers of everything, and maybe the head has to be covered up first
Bill:
Yeah.
Dani:
before the other clothes can get on.
Tom:
Yep. This is Major Dr. John Paul Stapp. He was a US Air Force physician.
Sarah:
Is this like the... okay, night time... pirates with their patch, where they adjust... they use one patch to stay adjusted to the dark on that side. Does he just live in the dark and not come out to the sun?
I dunno, that's all I had.
Dani:
Was it just like, his face protection had to be so hefty that he normally couldn't see through it, but if he acclimatised himself to it, he could?
Tom:
He's thinking a bit more longer term than that.
Dani:
Woah, alright. So he was thinking long term about this. That just makes me think, I don't know. He wanted to be able to practice it, in case he couldn't see later.
Tom:
Yes!
Dani:
Oh! Did he think it was going to make him blind?
Tom:
Yes, he did.
Bill:
Oh, he had no idea how fast he could rocket.
Tom:
Yep. He was worried about eye damage. And he might have to go home in an ambulance a lot of times after braking at 46g. So he was getting dressed in the dark, in case he had to do that in future.
Sarah:
I was happier here thinking he was Superman.
SFX:
(Tom and Dani laugh)
Sarah:
That was a happier ending.
Tom:
He is famous in the aviation community. His his findings led to modern safety standards and the calibration of today's crash test dummies.
Dani, we're ready for your question. Whenever you want.
Dani:
Excellent.
This question has been sent in by Dr. Simon Scarle from Cardiff Met University. Thank you so much. I hope I pronounced your name right.
Tom:
Oh, specific!
Bill:
Mhm.
Dani:
Oh, yes. We'll find out why very soon.
When he arrives at work, Simon always solves one face of a Rubik's cube that has the letters A, C, E, O, P, and U in the six centres. It also has a 'Sun', 13 digits, and various other letters. Why?
I'll read that one more time.
Tom:
(laughs) I'll take notes.
Sarah:
Gonna have to write this one down.
Dani:
Oh, yeah.
Tom:
Yeah.
Dani:
When he arrives at work, Simon always solves one face of a Rubik's cube that has the letters A, C, E, O, P, and U in the six centres. It also has a 'Sun', 13 digits, and various other letters. Why?
Tom:
So I've been trying to anagram those letters, but there's four vowels there. And it doesn't look anagrammable.
Sarah:
They're also not together. They're in the centres. So they're around the cube.
I want— where's a cube? I have a Rubik's cube.
Dani:
I can see like 10 cubes behind you.
Sarah:
I do have actually here... two Rubik's cubes, neither of which are solvable, because they are all the same colour.
Tom:
They don't have colours on them!
Sarah:
This one is glow-in-the-dark, and this one is chrome that is slowly rubbing off, and unfortunately is quite sticky. But they do still turn.
Dani:
You know what? Those all work fine.
Bill:
So there's an A side, there's a C side, there's an E side, there's an O side, there's a P side, there's a U side. And never the twain shall meet.
Dani:
Correct?
Tom:
I was trying to work out if they could be directions, like centre, up. But E, O, P, and A I can't find anything for.
Dani:
No, not quite.
Tom:
A Sun and 13 digits.
Sarah:
I'm here to provide the visual aids today, everyone.
Dani:
Ah, so good.
Bill:
Lovely.
Sarah:
(giggles)
Dani:
So good for us.
Bill:
Because, I mean, and then also just a bunch of other letters. Right? That was also included. A Sun, 13 digits, a bunch of other, yeah.
Dani:
13 digits, a Sun, and various other letters.
Bill:
Because there's still quite a lot left, right? There's still 48 more cubes that are not those faces? Eight more on each side, the six sides.
Sarah:
Because we don't know how many suns and stuff, but the suns could be whether... like each day, maybe, it's about picking one of the letters.
If we're only solving one side, we have to pick one side based on whatever these letters are, and then we match up the things on the other side, like the Sun. Maybe as like a weather... Maybe it's just a fun diary.
Dani:
You are rolling your way right in there.
Tom:
Okay.
Dani:
This is good stuff.
Sarah:
At kids' schools, they have... like if he was a teacher, they have boards, where it's like, they put up the sun today, they put up the temperature, they put up the date, which could be digits.
Dani:
You have virtually got this.
Tom:
You only need 13 digits for all the possible days in a month. You need zero through nine, and then you need an extra one, two, and three. That's 13 digits.
Dani:
Excellent. Yeah.
Bill:
Okay.
Dani:
You've basically got this. Now there's just a little bit more to, how does this construction work? Like what are these eight, what's the A, C, E, O, P, and U?
Bill:
Then, are they things that you could usually make like days of the week out of? But— Pr something— Or months or something like that. But you need them— But these are just the unique letters or something.
Tom:
That's the centre of all the months. That's—
Dani:
Tell me more.
Tom:
J-A-N for January, that's an A. But that also works for M-A-R, which is March, F-E-B... that's the middle letter.
Bill:
April uses the P. May uses the A. June uses the U. July uses the U.
Dani:
You've absolutely nailed it.
Bill:
It's a calendar.
Sarah:
It's a calendar!
Dani:
It's a calendar!
Tom:
It's a calendar!
Bill:
It's a calendar. It's a nerds' calendar.
Tom:
Every day you have to go in and rearrange the Rubik's cube.
Dani:
Yep, exactly right.
Bill:
That's fun.
Sarah:
Can I get one? I obviously like Rubik's cubes.
Tom:
(laughs)
Dani:
Quite possible. Apparently Rubik's officially released one of these, and there are some unofficial sticker sets online. So maybe for your blank Rubik's cube, this will be great. You could totally get this.
Sarah:
It's not blank. It's actually holographic.
Bill:
And we know you love stickers.
Dani:
Oh, okay, yeah. That's too pretty to cover.
Sarah:
Yeah, does need a repaint.
Dani:
The one other thing that I will mention: We talked about this 'Sun'. It's actually not a picture of a sun. It's...
Tom:
Oh, it's S-U-N. It's the days of the week.
Sarah:
Sunday.
Dani:
Yeah, exactly right. There's perhaps another one that just says 'Day' on it, and you can switch out all of those every time you need to as well.
Sarah:
That wouldn't be an easy puzzle to solve, by the way.
Tom:
No!
Sarah:
Or design!
Bill:
Yeah, this is just a bragging question. This is just to, "Look how cool I am."
Tom:
This next question was sent in by Chris B. Thank you very much.
In 2004, the town of Molde, Norway dumped 150 kilos of popcorn into the sea. How could this protect the marine environment in the future?
I'll say this again.
In 2004, the town of Molde, Norway dumped 150 kilos of popcorn into the sea. How could this protect the marine environment in the future?
Sarah:
(holds up popcorn bucket, eating from it)
Tom:
How do you have popcorn ready, Sarah?
Dani:
(laughs uproariously)
Tom:
How was that immediately— you reached off-screen, and magically from hammerspace produced popcorn.
Sarah:
I'm just that good.
Tom:
Wow!
Sarah:
I got Rubik's cubes. I got popcorn. I've got...
Tom:
(laughs)
Dani:
Alright, well, my first joke answer was that the marine life needs more fibre.
Bill:
I did wonder. My first...
You're dumping this popcorn into the ocean to help the marine situation in the future.
One of the things that did occur to me was the idea of like, you are feeding something, you're trying to feed and sustain a thing in the water that is good for... the environment. It's good for the water. It's good for people.
Where my thought was, do oysters eat popcorn? 'Cause people love to make oyster reefs. It's like a big thing.
Dani:
I suppose one thing we haven't considered, I feel like we immediately all went to airy, fluffy popcorn.
Could it have just been the kernels of popcorn? And the aim was to have them sink? Do they— Would they sink?
Bill:
I don't know if the kernel would sink.
Dani:
I've never put popcorn kernels in salt water before.
Tom:
I would try and work that out. There is some popcorn in front of Sarah.
Dani:
Sarah.
Tom:
There is some water—
Sarah:
Yeah, but this is already popped. This is pre-popped. This not gonna help.
Tom:
This was pre-popped popcorn. It had to be pre-popped.
Sarah:
I don't wanna waste my popcorn. This is like premium salt and vinegar popcorn. I don't want— nah. Do we wanna find out?
Dani:
If it sank to the bottom, do they have like underwater volcanoes there, and they were checking, and if popcorn suddenly started rising to the surface, they could flee?
Tom:
(laughs)
Bill:
Well look, they're throwing in— Hi everybody. Welcome. This is the science portion. We're doing an experiment. Sarah is gonna get some popcorn.
Sarah:
Okay. You wanna see what happens?
Bill:
Yeah.
Sarah:
It's not much water.
Bill:
You are acting right now as Scully. Or Mulder. I'll be Scully.
Sarah:
I am the object lesson person today.
(drops popcorn into water glass)
Bill:
Okay.
Sarah:
I got all the props.
Bill:
It floats.
Tom:
It floats.
Sarah:
The salt is dropping.
Tom:
Now, I could have told you that... because it's on here on my notes that popcorn floats in water. But I'm really glad that you have actually physically demonstrated that. Yes.
Sarah:
I'm not gonna be able to drink this water now though.
Bill:
Skull it, skull it.
Tom:
Chug, chug, chug, chug.
Bill:
Let's do it, come on.
Sarah:
(sips silently)
Tom:
(cackles)
Sarah:
Little bit salty. Not too bad.
Tom:
Yeah. Yeah.
Sarah:
The salt is leaving the popcorn though. I don't know if that's notable.
Bill:
Well, is it like, are you study— Is it using it as then a reference to study... where there are currents and things? 'Cause the popcorn is now floating around. You'd be like, there's a rip over there, because the popcorn is floating out to sea.
Tom:
Definitely, something like that. You are thinking along the right lines.
Bill:
Okay. Now I'm thinking with popcorn.
Sarah:
I was gonna go the angle of like, if popcorn can absorb things... putting popcorn out, would it like help pull things out of the water, and then it's easy to scoop up, 'cause it's on the top?
Dani:
Like safe styrofoam.
Sarah:
Yeah.
Tom:
Okay. Take all the three things you just said. Studying the currents, pulling stuff out the water, safe styrofoam, all that. All of these circle around the answer.
Bill:
Is it because popcorn in this case is biodegradable and not that bad, but it is mimicking how things like styrofoam would move in the ocean, so they can track it to go find their various garbage islands out in the ocean?
Dani:
Oh, this is finding the garbage patch.
Tom:
Nearly.
Bill:
Oh, I keep being so close!
Tom:
Very, very nearly. You're right. You're right. It's standing in for something bad. But it's not long-term tracking. 'Cause that popcorn's not gonna stick around for long.
Bill:
So you're looking for...
Tom:
Bill, what you said was— it was so close. It was so— there's— changing a couple words in there will be enough.
Bill:
I'm putting—
Dani:
So, besides garbage—
Tom:
Do some character work here. Like here's 150 kilos of popcorn. We're throwing it in the ocean.
Bill:
Okay.
Tom:
Why? What happens next?
Bill:
Alright, so I'm Mulder throwing popcorn on the ocean. Dani, you can be Scully.
Tom:
(laughs)
Bill:
We'll do it— Which one— Wait, what does that mean?
Dani:
Sarah, you're the Smoking Man.
Bill:
You're the Smoking Man. These are characters from The X-Files. And I believe that the popcorn is aliens, but Dani thinks there's a more rational explanation.
Dani:
It's a government... Look, we've already covered garbage, and it wasn't garbage. The only other big ocean problem I can see is... poop, dead bodies, and oil.
Tom:
Oil, Dani. Keep thinking about oil.
Dani:
Eyy.
Tom:
But it's not to clean up the oil. There isn't any oil.
Dani:
Oh?
Tom:
This isn't for the cleanup.
Sarah:
Are they planning on eating this popcorn?
Tom:
Don't think about how the marine environment's reacting. Think about how the people are reacting.
Bill:
They are... going out to get free popcorn. No, they're going—
Tom:
They're going out to get the popcorn.
Dani:
Oh, is it training them on cleanup duty?
Tom:
Yes, it is, Dani, spot on. This is emergency training. Yes. In 2004, the town of Molde dumped around 150 kilos of popcorn into the harbour as part of a large-scale emergency rehearsal. So they can deploy containment booms, they can skim it, they can do all the cleanup techniques. And if they miss a bit of it, it's fine, it's popcorn.
Bill:
It's popcorn.
Dani:
(snickers)
Sarah:
(giggles)
Tom:
Bill, can we have your question please?
Bill:
Yes, alright.
This question has been sent in by Liam Davis. Thank you, Liam.
Sarah enters a running race to push herself to her limits. It is essential that she helps to train her closest competitor, Meg, as well as motivate her during the race. Why?
One more time.
Sarah enters a running race to push herself to the limit. It is essential that she helps to train her closest competitor, Meg, as well as motivate her during the race. Why?
Dani:
Oddly descriptive, sort of colourful language for one of these questions.
Tom:
(snickers)
Bill:
Whatcha talking about?
Dani:
Push yourself to the limit, eh?
Bill:
(chuckles)
Dani:
What limits could we be talking about?
Sarah:
What kind of race is it too?
Dani:
Well it said running.
Sarah:
This actually reminds me. Michelle Khare just did the... seven marathons in seven days, I believe it was, in seven different countries.
Tom:
Continents.
Sarah:
Seven continents.
Tom:
Yeah.
Sarah:
It was insane. And in that kind of competition, you obviously need people around you that can somewhat keep up.
Bill:
This is—
Sarah:
Sorry, I dunno if that gives us any clue, but also Michelle's awesome, so...
Bill:
I will say it does put you in the right world, of, if anything, marathons.
Dani:
The seven continents. Wait, seven? The continents of Earth.
Tom:
It's extreme running races.
Bill:
Yes.
Sarah:
Well, 'cause if you're running up a mountain, that's like a very dangerous mountain, there may not be other people, except for the competitors that can actually do the race. And therefore the competitors actually also then become the life support for each other. Right?
Tom:
Oh, yes. Particularly in like ultra marathons, where they're running 50K, 100K, even like 500K sometimes. I dunno why you'd need to train your closest competitor, though.
Bill:
I will say, if Meg did have to drop out, Sarah would be disappointed, but not endangered.
Tom:
Okay, so it's not like she's the guide for a blind runner or something like that. She's gonna be fine.
Dani:
Are they just like they have body cams or something, so they're each other's only proof that things got done properly?
Bill:
No.
Dani:
Competitors... Like in running race, I don't know how much does using someone's wind stream matter in these sorts of races. Oh boy. And do we think we're talking horizontal or vertical?
SFX:
(Tom and Bill laugh)
Sarah:
I mean, I can imagine in most races, like running against someone versus running against yourself.
Tom:
Mm.
Sarah:
If they're keeping up with you, it's going to motivate you to do further, to go further.
So maybe she's not actually interested in beating the competitor as much as they're both trying to hit like a world record. And so it's actually important that they both do well. Because that's the only way she's gonna be able to motivate herself enough to break the record.
Bill:
You are very, very close, except for the fundamental difference that it has nothing to do with motivation. But thinking about breaking records, and wanting to break a record is key.
Tom:
Ah, is this a ridiculous world record? Is this one of those things in the Guinness Book of Records that's like, longest race performed while... while being slapped in the face by your closest competitor? I dunno, where just like the— it's a ridiculous record.
Bill:
It is ridiculous, only insofar as it is an extreme human feat of...
Tom:
Okay.
Bill:
That I could never do. But it's not ridiculous in concept, like... doing the whole thing, followed by— how far can you run while followed by Meg. It's not— there's not the—
Tom:
Three legged marathon. You've got two of 'em, have to run together.
Bill:
You have hit my very first clue. It is not a three-legged race.
Tom:
Oh! (laughs)
Sarah:
The first clue is that you're on the wrong track.
Tom:
Oh, I thought I was smart!
Bill:
To quote verbatim, it does say, "It is not a three-legged race, Tom."
SFX:
(guessers laugh heartily)
Tom:
Okay, okay.
Sarah:
I mean, you did say that if Meg pulled out, she would be disappointed.
Bill:
Mm.
Sarah:
But I insinuated that that wouldn't have— she could still do it by herself technically.
Bill:
No, she wouldn't. If Meg— She wouldn't be endangered, but she would be disappointed
Sarah:
Oh, sorry.
Bill:
because she wouldn't be able to set the record.
Tom:
Hmm.
Sarah:
So she needs Meg to set the record.
Bill:
Up until a point, yes.
Dani:
Has there never been an ultra marathon end in a tie before, and she really wanted that one for some reason?
Bill:
No, no. She wants to win. She wants to win, and she wants to do the best anyone's ever done.
But she needs Meg there to make sure that happens.
Sarah:
Is a part of this a two-person part?
Bill:
No... it is not about there being two. There's a lot of people, they're all running independently. The question is, I suppose... You're saying it's an ultra marathon. How long is an ultra marathon?
Tom:
50, 100, 500 kilometres. Any distance longer than 26 miles, or 26 and a bit, is an ultra marathon.
Bill:
That's fair. This can be very ultra. It could be incredibly ultra, this marathon.
Tom:
This can be like 1,000 kilometres.
Bill:
Oh, it could be a big one, yeah.
Dani:
Were they like... Am I... I always go back to The Simpsons. Is this like Homer climbing the Murderhorn, where he only did some of the climb, and then his Sherpas carried him while he slept the rest of the way?
Bill:
No, no. Sarah is going to do the whole thing. She just wants to be able to get the record.
Dani:
Mm.
Sarah:
I'm just— The concept of me running is really throwing me off.
Tom:
(laughs)
Bill:
I will say, this marathon is not decided. The victory is not decided in a— the usual way.
Sarah:
Does the victory have anything to do with the distance between you and second place?
Bill:
No. Well actually, sort— Not the distance between you, but it is based on who comes second, I suppose.
Tom:
It's last one standing.
Bill:
It is last one running.
Tom:
Well, last one running.
Dani:
Ohhh.
Bill:
So why does she care about Meg? Why doesn't she just win last one running?
Sarah:
Well, 'cause she still wants to set the record, and if Meg stops, the time stops.
Bill:
Yes. As soon as she becomes the last one standing, she wins. The race is over. You win. Good day, sir. That's it.
But... Sarah wanted to set the record. So she needed Meg to push her, to get far enough, that she crosses the record distance in a last woman standing race.
Dani:
I'm so afraid to ask. Does it say how long these people last?
Bill:
Thank you for asking. So let me give you some race details.
So this is the backyard ultra. And it is a unique format where they do the... they need to complete a loop, which is 4.167 miles every hour. Which means, they have to keep going at a rate of 100 miles every 24 hours.
Dani:
Ooh.
Bill:
There is no set distance. It is whoever is the last remaining, whoever does the most laps. Well, specifically, they keep going until only one person can do a complete loop within the allotted hour.
Dani:
It's the most brutal beep test.
Bill:
Yes, exactly, like a beep test. And the record, Sarah's record... which Sarah did set... and they often refer to the person who's going— who's keeping up with you, staying in second, as the assist. So Meg Eckert was Sarah Perry's assist. And Sarah Perry set the record with 95 laps, making that 395 miles.
Dani:
Ugh.
Sarah:
Wow.
Tom:
Ohh.
Bill:
It's a big race.
Tom:
(chuckles)
Dani:
Brutal.
Tom:
Which means there's only one question left.
Thank you to Taleweaver for sending this one in.
Since 1964, people have copied something Richard first tried in Tokyo, even though it was a flop. What is it?
Any guesses?
Dani:
You thought you could get us, Tom, because this is a sport question, didn't you?
Tom:
It is. It's a sport question!
Dani:
I know my Olympic years!
Bill:
You know your flops!
Dani:
I know my... flops.
Tom:
You do. Anyone wanna kick that one home?
Bill:
This is the Fosbury flop.
Tom:
It is!
Bill:
The high jump technique that works pretty dang well.
Tom:
This is Richard, or Dick Fosbury. He experimented with a new technique in the 1964 Olympics, and it became known as the Fosbury flop, because he turns on the approach and goes back-first. And a newspaper ran the caption, "Fosbury flops over bar."
Thank you very much to all our players. Where can people find you? What's going on in your lives?
We'll start with Sarah.
Sarah:
So this is the Colour Cube. It helps you to pick colours that work well together, for pretty much anything that you use colours for. You can find that on my website at SarahRenaeClark.com. And we'll see how I use it.
And watch my other crazy art adventures on YouTube under Sarah Renae Clark.
Tom:
Dani.
Dani:
You can find us if you're in the mood for escape rooms, murder mysteries. Escape This Podcast, Solve This Murder. You'll find plenty of them.
Tom:
And Bill.
Bill:
That's— sorry, that's, where you'd find me too. I'm just— I just hang onto Dani's coattails and I ride it to success.
Tom:
(laughs)
Dani:
Yeah. That's how this— that's how it works.
Tom:
And if you wanna know more about this show, or send in your own ideas for questions, or join Producer David's Lateral Producers Club, you can do that at lateralcast.com. We are at @lateralcast basically everywhere, and there are full video episodes every week on Spotify.
Thank you very much to Bill Sunderland.
Bill:
Thank you. It was lovely.
Tom:
Dani Siller.
Dani:
Always happy to be here.
Tom:
Sarah Rene Clark.
Sarah:
Thank you so much.
Tom:
I've been Tom Scott, and that's been Lateral.
Episode Credits
| HOST | Tom Scott |
| QUESTION PRODUCER | David Bodycombe |
| EDITED BY | Julie Hassett at The Podcast Studios, Dublin |
| MUSIC | Karl-Ola Kjellholm ('Private Detective'/'Agrumes', courtesy of epidemicsound.com) |
| ADDITIONAL QUESTIONS | Dr Simon Scarle, Martin Aitken, Liam Davis, Taleweaver, David, Chris B., Jesse Sefton |
| FORMAT | Pad 26 Limited/Labyrinth Games Ltd |
| EXECUTIVE PRODUCERS | David Bodycombe and Tom Scott |